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moustique
the 1st picks switch you pass to a new player (Miami ) was another one of those times where i wonder how you manage to find someone yet again to pass on your old stuff for a good pick or a good younger player. If ppl keep accepting this kind of deal The Cleveland franchise will just win half the ws title for the next 25 seasons.
To refresh everyone's memory, you did a perfectly ''allright'' deal with a brand new player on this sim.
Trade #1379254 has been completed between the Cleveland DS9ers and the Miami Gators. The Miami Gators receive Mike Torrez, Draft Pick - 2012 Round 1 (CLE) from the Cleveland DS9ers in exchange for Draft Pick - 2012 Round 1 (MIA).
So Miami got Torrez and Cleveland pick, likely the 15th or 16th
For a pick that is looking to be around 5 to 8. Miami was higher at the time but everyone knew that was not going to last, Miami was 64-98 last season. and i know ccox knows this very well, i have to give him credit for that the guy know the game very well.
and what happened to Torrez 10 days after the trade ? The player that was supposed to make it worthwhile for Miami to lose 8 to 10 rank in the upcoming draft ?
The Miami Gators have promoted June Reuschel to the major league team. The Miami Gators have designated Mike Torrez for assignment.
The Anaheim Robots have acquired Mike Torrez from the waiver wire.
I am not the one who initiated the 2 protests but as long as i see trades like this and your twisted justification you write on this board for all of them, i'm gonna side with the ppl who make those protest. This trade for me is the worst of them all, With the bots and league merger that are happening in the sim i believe we all have to be on the lookout to protect the new players joining the game. this should have been reversed.
Thank you ccox ! keep up the good work.
[Edited on 4-16-2016 by moustique]
Torrez taken on the waivers
April 16, 2016 at 08:09PM View BBCode
ccox you wonder why some ppl have a problem with the trades you sell to some owners here.the 1st picks switch you pass to a new player (Miami ) was another one of those times where i wonder how you manage to find someone yet again to pass on your old stuff for a good pick or a good younger player. If ppl keep accepting this kind of deal The Cleveland franchise will just win half the ws title for the next 25 seasons.
To refresh everyone's memory, you did a perfectly ''allright'' deal with a brand new player on this sim.
Trade #1379254 has been completed between the Cleveland DS9ers and the Miami Gators. The Miami Gators receive Mike Torrez, Draft Pick - 2012 Round 1 (CLE) from the Cleveland DS9ers in exchange for Draft Pick - 2012 Round 1 (MIA).
So Miami got Torrez and Cleveland pick, likely the 15th or 16th
For a pick that is looking to be around 5 to 8. Miami was higher at the time but everyone knew that was not going to last, Miami was 64-98 last season. and i know ccox knows this very well, i have to give him credit for that the guy know the game very well.
and what happened to Torrez 10 days after the trade ? The player that was supposed to make it worthwhile for Miami to lose 8 to 10 rank in the upcoming draft ?
The Miami Gators have promoted June Reuschel to the major league team. The Miami Gators have designated Mike Torrez for assignment.
The Anaheim Robots have acquired Mike Torrez from the waiver wire.
I am not the one who initiated the 2 protests but as long as i see trades like this and your twisted justification you write on this board for all of them, i'm gonna side with the ppl who make those protest. This trade for me is the worst of them all, With the bots and league merger that are happening in the sim i believe we all have to be on the lookout to protect the new players joining the game. this should have been reversed.
Thank you ccox ! keep up the good work.
[Edited on 4-16-2016 by moustique]
shieldagent
[Edited on 4-17-2016 by shieldagent]
April 16, 2016 at 08:38PM View BBCode
well said. in the end maybe the trade won't make much of a difference. we'll know when we see the draftees on oct 1. but it doesn't matter, I wish jbech71 will have his draft pick back he got nothing in return for it.[Edited on 4-17-2016 by shieldagent]
ccox
If you want to chalk the following up as "twisted logic," that's your choice, of course, but in Miami I saw a team that was making trades to win now: a team becoming much better than the previous season, able to now beat a rebuilding Montreal and an IDKWTF-is-going-on Houston (with his weaker closer and SP in Marto, and an A-/A vRHP Fitzmaurice...inexplicably now on the bench...to name a few). My thought was I'd move my #12-16 pick for a slightly early one, though there was no guarantee I'd make the playoffs or that he woudn't go deeper in October.
What I didn't foresee was Torrez getting tossed to the wire, or soon after, last year's All-Star 103 RBI man Benn Bolling sharing his fate (who Houston picked up and, in another WTF scenario, benched, while a C-/B+ OS 25 doofus stays in the lineup). Nor did I foresee the rise of the N Y Stalkers who have benefited significantly from the situation (nor did I expect NY to trade his 1st overall for an OS 35 diminished slap-hitter and an OS 36 bench catcher...an awful trade, btw, but since NY's not me I guess it's okay to trade geriatrics for 1st rounders, right?).
If jbech had kept Torrez and Bolling, his team would likely be much better, but he didn't. But guess what? I am not responsible for someone else's choices. When I make trade proposals I always, ALWAYS try to envision what will make the other guy's team better, based on what I think they're trying to accomplish, while I hopefully make mine better in the process. It's not my job to guide them after that, though I always am willing to help when asked (and sometimes when advice isn't solicited). Just ask Trinity and Anaheim and tons of people in the forums.
There have been many times where I've made a trade, looked back and thought, "Man, I wish I hadn't done that," but that's just the way it goes. That's the way sometimes life goes. You shrug, move on, and hopefully learn something. But to wait until now (given Miami's Ill-advised waivers and current standings) and pretend you have some crystal ball and "proof" that my success is simply due to being some predatory rip-off artist, Montreal, is BS.
April 17, 2016 at 12:09PM View BBCode
In hindsight I agree the trade looks bad.If you want to chalk the following up as "twisted logic," that's your choice, of course, but in Miami I saw a team that was making trades to win now: a team becoming much better than the previous season, able to now beat a rebuilding Montreal and an IDKWTF-is-going-on Houston (with his weaker closer and SP in Marto, and an A-/A vRHP Fitzmaurice...inexplicably now on the bench...to name a few). My thought was I'd move my #12-16 pick for a slightly early one, though there was no guarantee I'd make the playoffs or that he woudn't go deeper in October.
What I didn't foresee was Torrez getting tossed to the wire, or soon after, last year's All-Star 103 RBI man Benn Bolling sharing his fate (who Houston picked up and, in another WTF scenario, benched, while a C-/B+ OS 25 doofus stays in the lineup). Nor did I foresee the rise of the N Y Stalkers who have benefited significantly from the situation (nor did I expect NY to trade his 1st overall for an OS 35 diminished slap-hitter and an OS 36 bench catcher...an awful trade, btw, but since NY's not me I guess it's okay to trade geriatrics for 1st rounders, right?).
If jbech had kept Torrez and Bolling, his team would likely be much better, but he didn't. But guess what? I am not responsible for someone else's choices. When I make trade proposals I always, ALWAYS try to envision what will make the other guy's team better, based on what I think they're trying to accomplish, while I hopefully make mine better in the process. It's not my job to guide them after that, though I always am willing to help when asked (and sometimes when advice isn't solicited). Just ask Trinity and Anaheim and tons of people in the forums.
There have been many times where I've made a trade, looked back and thought, "Man, I wish I hadn't done that," but that's just the way it goes. That's the way sometimes life goes. You shrug, move on, and hopefully learn something. But to wait until now (given Miami's Ill-advised waivers and current standings) and pretend you have some crystal ball and "proof" that my success is simply due to being some predatory rip-off artist, Montreal, is BS.
odinson
April 17, 2016 at 12:22PM View BBCode
Ill advised ? Of course hes a New player thats moustique's whole point. You sent the same kind of offers to me when i joined. Im so glad i turned them down.
blackmet
April 17, 2016 at 08:11PM View BBCode
NY proposed the trade to me. He's in contention, I'm assuming he wanted some upgrades in the OF and catcher to try to push him over the top. It made sense to me, since I've done the same in the past. And I'm trying to rebuild, so a late 1st round pick is worth it for me. I hope he's happy with what he picked up.
ccox
My opinion is that you got a great deal. I certainly wasn't compelled to protest, it just seemed dopey to give a first for a hitter who may be A/C+ vRHP next season and a backup catcher who could retire in the OS.
But if a guy gets a power hitting, middle infielder (a much more important position than a backup anything and a corner outfielder...the least important position in the game) for what appeared to most (pre-unfortunate player waives) as a (maybe) slightly inferior draft position (after a democratic vote), that's worthy of not only a protest but also a way-after-the fact "I knew it!" and rebuke of an owner? Apparently so.
If some of you gave such a damn about jbech, why didn't you say something when he waived those guys?
It's funny. A few of you on here who think you're wise just because you've played a ton of seasons only have yourselves to blame for a lack of success. Weird managerial preferences, crappy drafting (and outright neglect of it), loading your teams with hitters while neglecting pitching, etc. But I guess it's easier to scapegoat me for your deficiencies. (not talking to you, Washington). If that makes you guys feel better, have fun with that, I guess.
Out.
[Edited on 4-17-2016 by ccox]
April 17, 2016 at 10:04PM View BBCode
Originally posted by blackmet
NY proposed the trade to me. He's in contention, I'm assuming he wanted some upgrades in the OF and catcher to try to push him over the top. It made sense to me, since I've done the same in the past. And I'm trying to rebuild, so a late 1st round pick is worth it for me. I hope he's happy with what he picked up.
My opinion is that you got a great deal. I certainly wasn't compelled to protest, it just seemed dopey to give a first for a hitter who may be A/C+ vRHP next season and a backup catcher who could retire in the OS.
But if a guy gets a power hitting, middle infielder (a much more important position than a backup anything and a corner outfielder...the least important position in the game) for what appeared to most (pre-unfortunate player waives) as a (maybe) slightly inferior draft position (after a democratic vote), that's worthy of not only a protest but also a way-after-the fact "I knew it!" and rebuke of an owner? Apparently so.
If some of you gave such a damn about jbech, why didn't you say something when he waived those guys?
It's funny. A few of you on here who think you're wise just because you've played a ton of seasons only have yourselves to blame for a lack of success. Weird managerial preferences, crappy drafting (and outright neglect of it), loading your teams with hitters while neglecting pitching, etc. But I guess it's easier to scapegoat me for your deficiencies. (not talking to you, Washington). If that makes you guys feel better, have fun with that, I guess.
Out.
[Edited on 4-17-2016 by ccox]
blackmet
I don't protest dopey. There are many, many trades that make no sense to me, but unless it seems like an outright fleece, I'll generally let it stand. It's your team. You pay for it. You have the right to run it how you wish to a pretty large extent.
I think you should be careful though...if people think you're acting like a dick, and you get fleeced somehow, they're not going to come to your defense. There was one trade where a player traded an 32 YO A- overall pitcher with good splits that had a couple of bad seasons for a Baltimore 3rd round draft pick. The player had tried to send the player to the minors for the playoffs and was stopped by Admin, and threw a hissy fit.
It was a TOTALLY unfair trade. But, because he was rude about it, the trade wasn't protested. And Baltimore got a Cy Young or at least all star season from that pitcher for a song, and I just kind of watched that happen and chuckled.
jbach -- you're new to the Sim. Ask for advice on trades on the boards. Get help from vets, outside this league, they're more than happy to do so. It'll make your life a lot easier and your time playing this game a lot more enjoyable until you get some experience.
April 18, 2016 at 12:12AM View BBCode
Originally posted by ccox
Originally posted by blackmet
NY proposed the trade to me. He's in contention, I'm assuming he wanted some upgrades in the OF and catcher to try to push him over the top. It made sense to me, since I've done the same in the past. And I'm trying to rebuild, so a late 1st round pick is worth it for me. I hope he's happy with what he picked up.
My opinion is that you got a great deal. I certainly wasn't compelled to protest, it just seemed dopey to give a first for a hitter who may be A/C+ vRHP next season and a backup catcher who could retire in the OS.
But if a guy gets a power hitting, middle infielder (a much more important position than a backup anything and a corner outfielder...the least important position in the game) for what appeared to most (pre-unfortunate player waives) as a (maybe) slightly inferior draft position (after a democratic vote), that's worthy of not only a protest but also a way-after-the fact "I knew it!" and rebuke of an owner? Apparently so.
If some of you gave such a damn about jbech, why didn't you say something when he waived those guys?
It's funny. A few of you on here who think you're wise just because you've played a ton of seasons only have yourselves to blame for a lack of success. Weird managerial preferences, crappy drafting (and outright neglect of it), loading your teams with hitters while neglecting pitching, etc. But I guess it's easier to scapegoat me for your deficiencies. (not talking to you, Washington). If that makes you guys feel better, have fun with that, I guess.
Out.
[Edited on 4-17-2016 by ccox]
I don't protest dopey. There are many, many trades that make no sense to me, but unless it seems like an outright fleece, I'll generally let it stand. It's your team. You pay for it. You have the right to run it how you wish to a pretty large extent.
I think you should be careful though...if people think you're acting like a dick, and you get fleeced somehow, they're not going to come to your defense. There was one trade where a player traded an 32 YO A- overall pitcher with good splits that had a couple of bad seasons for a Baltimore 3rd round draft pick. The player had tried to send the player to the minors for the playoffs and was stopped by Admin, and threw a hissy fit.
It was a TOTALLY unfair trade. But, because he was rude about it, the trade wasn't protested. And Baltimore got a Cy Young or at least all star season from that pitcher for a song, and I just kind of watched that happen and chuckled.
jbach -- you're new to the Sim. Ask for advice on trades on the boards. Get help from vets, outside this league, they're more than happy to do so. It'll make your life a lot easier and your time playing this game a lot more enjoyable until you get some experience.
shieldagent
:lol:
April 18, 2016 at 12:29AM View BBCode
yes i get it, you say it for long enough, most of us we're a bunch of loosers. as a looser i promise NOT to go into a rage when i lose the last world series game. at least i know how to lose gracefully:lol:
ccox
And I'm not calling anyone a "looser" (lol, sorry) either.
Good luck everyone.
April 18, 2016 at 12:58PM View BBCode
I apologized for that, at least twice, even sent a private u2u to the owner. It was frustrating to be up 3-0 in the WS and lose 4 in a row. I get carried away sometimes. I guess apologies aren't accepted around here by some.And I'm not calling anyone a "looser" (lol, sorry) either.
Good luck everyone.
jrthecrusher
The value in that trade was pretty even and the protest was nonsensical IMO.
It is ABUNDANTLY CLEAR to me that these protests are a result of NOTHING MORE than some sort of petty jealousy or "woe is me, why doesn't my team get deals like that" attitude about Ccox.
Sure he's a little rough around the edges but in my experience he's been nothing short of reasonable. I've made a few trades with him where we both got exactly what we were looking for. There have been other times where we couldn't match up as well and we both moved on. There was no undue pressure and all of his offers to me have been fair at the very least...maybe even slanted in my favor a bit (looking at Dots Maestri)
The notion that he's actively trying to rip owners off doesn't add up for me.
To the man's credit he is CONSTANTLY trying to upgrade his team's outlook both in the present and future sense by ALL means available to him, be it trades, the draft, the waiver wire, you name it. He's CONSTANTLY adding value to his team. You shouldn't be upset by that, you should be trying to learn something from it.
If you want to get younger players with promise for older players clinging to value don't just sit around and wait for them to fall in your lap - spam out as many offers as your little fingers can bear to teams trying to climb the standings
If you want your team to do better don't try to drag down the other owners in the league - BE BETTER
If you're frustrated and can't figure out why your team can't get over the bump don't take it out on the other owners in the league - ASK QUESTIONS.
There are TONS of resources on the message boards and tons of owners that are more than happy to help someone learn the finer points of the game - AND CCOX IS ONE OF THE MOST ACTIVE IN THAT REGARD.
Can we please put this rip off artist reputation to bed? It's an unfounded notion and this example of "proof" shows me nothing more than an owner(one of a few apparently) grasping at straws to punish someone for winning.
[Edited on 4-19-2016 by jrthecrusher]
April 18, 2016 at 10:51PM View BBCode
Holding Ccox responsible for jbech waiving a GG caliber MI with league average offense is ASININEThe value in that trade was pretty even and the protest was nonsensical IMO.
It is ABUNDANTLY CLEAR to me that these protests are a result of NOTHING MORE than some sort of petty jealousy or "woe is me, why doesn't my team get deals like that" attitude about Ccox.
Sure he's a little rough around the edges but in my experience he's been nothing short of reasonable. I've made a few trades with him where we both got exactly what we were looking for. There have been other times where we couldn't match up as well and we both moved on. There was no undue pressure and all of his offers to me have been fair at the very least...maybe even slanted in my favor a bit (looking at Dots Maestri)
The notion that he's actively trying to rip owners off doesn't add up for me.
To the man's credit he is CONSTANTLY trying to upgrade his team's outlook both in the present and future sense by ALL means available to him, be it trades, the draft, the waiver wire, you name it. He's CONSTANTLY adding value to his team. You shouldn't be upset by that, you should be trying to learn something from it.
If you want to get younger players with promise for older players clinging to value don't just sit around and wait for them to fall in your lap - spam out as many offers as your little fingers can bear to teams trying to climb the standings
If you want your team to do better don't try to drag down the other owners in the league - BE BETTER
If you're frustrated and can't figure out why your team can't get over the bump don't take it out on the other owners in the league - ASK QUESTIONS.
There are TONS of resources on the message boards and tons of owners that are more than happy to help someone learn the finer points of the game - AND CCOX IS ONE OF THE MOST ACTIVE IN THAT REGARD.
Can we please put this rip off artist reputation to bed? It's an unfounded notion and this example of "proof" shows me nothing more than an owner(one of a few apparently) grasping at straws to punish someone for winning.
[Edited on 4-19-2016 by jrthecrusher]
beaubonhomme
April 19, 2016 at 12:30AM View BBCode
:lol: i have nothing to say about this, can't argue with words in capital letters. except that you might wanna look the JBL history. The OP did have some minor achievements and short lived times at the top. also maybe you won't believe it because i am often regarded as a total loser by your friend but i won two titles and had a seven years streak with 100+ wins but still your friend likes to treat me like i am a bottom dweller in the league, yeah rough around the edge you say :lol: i toss aside your petty jealousy explanation. maybe the OP really care about new owners ? maybe ?
jrthecrusher
The guy is unnecessarily combative. Yes. Doesn't make him wrong.
To the point of your terribly impressive resume - even a broken clock is right twice a day.
I'm not saying you're bad, I'm just saying winning a hundred games a few times and a couple titles doesn't necessarily prove anything. I've seen more than a few bad owners in other leagues with great timing swoop in and grab a few titles while the powerhouses are rebuilding.
I can honestly say I haven't been in this league anywhere near long enough to figure out what everyone's skill level is.
His delivery can be crass, rude and over the top but I firmly believe that when he calls you out on your ridiculous decisions, it's not to impress upon you that you're an idiot(again not what I'm saying) but because he wants the people around him to learn from their mistakes. Its undeniable the game isn't very fun when you just kick around clueless noobs every season.
Competition makes everything more enjoyable.
Maybe I'm wrong and Ccox is just an a**hole, but if thats the case he's an a**hole who knows the game. If you want to use playercards as a measuring stick I'd say he knows it eight(8) times better than you(2 vs. 16 in a comparable # of seasons).
You can dismiss my argument all you like, you can dismiss his unsolicited "advice" all you like. You can believe whatever you like and run your team anyway you like.
Nobody here is going to stop you.
If you or any other owner doesn't want to learn that makes my life that much easier. One less person I have to compete with.
But you're doing yourself a disservice because there is knowledge to be obtained in between his jabs and digs.
As for the capital letters - its called emphasis, doesn't make the words right, it just makes them stick out better.
[Edited on 4-19-2016 by jrthecrusher]
April 19, 2016 at 01:23AM View BBCode
Beaubon:The guy is unnecessarily combative. Yes. Doesn't make him wrong.
To the point of your terribly impressive resume - even a broken clock is right twice a day.
I'm not saying you're bad, I'm just saying winning a hundred games a few times and a couple titles doesn't necessarily prove anything. I've seen more than a few bad owners in other leagues with great timing swoop in and grab a few titles while the powerhouses are rebuilding.
I can honestly say I haven't been in this league anywhere near long enough to figure out what everyone's skill level is.
His delivery can be crass, rude and over the top but I firmly believe that when he calls you out on your ridiculous decisions, it's not to impress upon you that you're an idiot(again not what I'm saying) but because he wants the people around him to learn from their mistakes. Its undeniable the game isn't very fun when you just kick around clueless noobs every season.
Competition makes everything more enjoyable.
Maybe I'm wrong and Ccox is just an a**hole, but if thats the case he's an a**hole who knows the game. If you want to use playercards as a measuring stick I'd say he knows it eight(8) times better than you(2 vs. 16 in a comparable # of seasons).
You can dismiss my argument all you like, you can dismiss his unsolicited "advice" all you like. You can believe whatever you like and run your team anyway you like.
Nobody here is going to stop you.
If you or any other owner doesn't want to learn that makes my life that much easier. One less person I have to compete with.
But you're doing yourself a disservice because there is knowledge to be obtained in between his jabs and digs.
As for the capital letters - its called emphasis, doesn't make the words right, it just makes them stick out better.
[Edited on 4-19-2016 by jrthecrusher]
jrthecrusher
Caring about new owners is one thing. Demanding that everyone in the league value youth exactly as you do is something else entirely.
[Edited on 4-19-2016 by jrthecrusher]
April 19, 2016 at 01:46AM View BBCode
Everyone else:Caring about new owners is one thing. Demanding that everyone in the league value youth exactly as you do is something else entirely.
[Edited on 4-19-2016 by jrthecrusher]
DemonicDoudou
April 19, 2016 at 05:52AM View BBCode
Originally posted by jrthecrusher
Everyone else:
Caring about new owners is one thing. Demanding that everyone in the league value youth exactly as you do is something else entirely.
[Edited on 4-19-2016 by jrthecrusher]
DemonicDoudou
When I joined this league, fun messages appeared almost every week. I may be wrong, but when Ccoxx joined this league, nobody worried about his trade proposals. It took a couple of seasons to discover what type of trades he was doing, even an episodic Coaching Points trading. Since then, CLE had a lot of excellent seasons, continuing to rebuild his team trading old guys for younger ones. Also, those funny messages disapeared and were replaced by frustration. We all can be frustrated, but we have to remember that every player in this league is mature enough to take decisions by his own. Personnally (this part is less objective and advice to newcomer), I think that every players in a league have to be warned about a trade proposal coming from the leaders. Why they are proposing this trade? He want my younger guy for his old timer, but he's racing for the title. When you're asking this question to yourself, you have to look for the trap and normally decline the trade.
I have great respect for original owners in this league, but SimDynasty have to replace leaving players. Maybe those rookies are not as good as others, but normally, they don't get a great team the first seasons (I remember mine) and want to upgrade as fast as possible. I'm not saying to let go trades like ''I give you my 1st pick and you give me your 2nd pick''.
I joined this league for fun and hope it'll return. Remember that it's just fantasy and even my beloved players are trapped in my computer. :)
Have fun!
April 19, 2016 at 06:39AM View BBCode
I feel very sad to see that almost every message on this board is about trade protestation or free bitching. I'll try to be as objective as I cana.When I joined this league, fun messages appeared almost every week. I may be wrong, but when Ccoxx joined this league, nobody worried about his trade proposals. It took a couple of seasons to discover what type of trades he was doing, even an episodic Coaching Points trading. Since then, CLE had a lot of excellent seasons, continuing to rebuild his team trading old guys for younger ones. Also, those funny messages disapeared and were replaced by frustration. We all can be frustrated, but we have to remember that every player in this league is mature enough to take decisions by his own. Personnally (this part is less objective and advice to newcomer), I think that every players in a league have to be warned about a trade proposal coming from the leaders. Why they are proposing this trade? He want my younger guy for his old timer, but he's racing for the title. When you're asking this question to yourself, you have to look for the trap and normally decline the trade.
I have great respect for original owners in this league, but SimDynasty have to replace leaving players. Maybe those rookies are not as good as others, but normally, they don't get a great team the first seasons (I remember mine) and want to upgrade as fast as possible. I'm not saying to let go trades like ''I give you my 1st pick and you give me your 2nd pick''.
I joined this league for fun and hope it'll return. Remember that it's just fantasy and even my beloved players are trapped in my computer. :)
Have fun!
jrthecrusher
You can't make that decision for a new owner.
If they want to make an ill-advised push to climb the standings who are any of us to stop them? You can disagree and point to the fact that they're foregoing a greater long term value to add short term value but the fact of the matter is that's their prerogative. You can send them a u2u asking them if they have their head on backwards, but don't be surprised if they tell you to go scratch...
The trade protest system is not in place to reverse trades you don't like, and its not in place to reverse trades that you wouldn't make in that person's shoes.
And it certainly is not in place to make life difficult for an owner who "ruined our paradise" :'(
The fact that this was brought up again is just silly. How many times are we going to go through this petty, whiny, selfish song and dance before the minority of owners figures out that the majority doesn't agree with them.
Put it to a vote once - trade stands, put it to a vote again - trade stands, put it to a vote a third time - trade stands
"The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results"
- Albert Einstein
You're wrong. Accept it and move on. If you don't believe me why don't we put it to a vote again.
April 19, 2016 at 11:05AM View BBCode
You guys make it seem like these "old timers" are completely useless. Just because a player is 35 or older does not make them devoid of value. And the extent of that value is subjective.You can't make that decision for a new owner.
If they want to make an ill-advised push to climb the standings who are any of us to stop them? You can disagree and point to the fact that they're foregoing a greater long term value to add short term value but the fact of the matter is that's their prerogative. You can send them a u2u asking them if they have their head on backwards, but don't be surprised if they tell you to go scratch...
The trade protest system is not in place to reverse trades you don't like, and its not in place to reverse trades that you wouldn't make in that person's shoes.
And it certainly is not in place to make life difficult for an owner who "ruined our paradise" :'(
The fact that this was brought up again is just silly. How many times are we going to go through this petty, whiny, selfish song and dance before the minority of owners figures out that the majority doesn't agree with them.
Put it to a vote once - trade stands, put it to a vote again - trade stands, put it to a vote a third time - trade stands
"The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results"
- Albert Einstein
You're wrong. Accept it and move on. If you don't believe me why don't we put it to a vote again.
moustique
April 19, 2016 at 01:12PM View BBCode
This is just great. Now there's two. OK i get it. no learning curve for the new guys. Right from the start. We use their inexperience to our advantage. flood them with offers before they know how to figure out what makes a bad a good and a all-star player. Call it genius and on top of it all ooze arrogance. Have fun with the next wave of bots.
jrthecrusher
Are you kidding?
We can't even produce conclusive evidence that one person is "exploiting the new guys" and now you're throwing more empty accusations at people out of frustration.
Its like you half-read some of my argument and filled in the rest yourself based on what you THINK is going on here. I don't think anybody here is flooding the newbies with offers and rubbing their hands together while they cackle menacingly.
If you seriously think that's what's been happening then you've been watching too many movies.
If you can't handle that there's more than one way to run a team and want to leave the league or the site(oh god please) because the other owners don't play the way you want them to then good riddance.
Trades have winners and losers. One owner shouldn't have to walk on eggshells because they won the long term end of a few trades and upset the balance of power that everyone was so comfortable with before their arrival.
If a new owner makes questionable decisions that's on them - it's not my job, or ccox's job to explain to them the ramifications of that decision. There is a learning curve but most aren't going to be able to see it until they've been around a while. That's just part of the game.
Nothing abusive has transpired here. That much IS conclusive.
Once again check the voting results - ALL THREE say it the same
[Edited on 4-19-2016 by jrthecrusher]
April 19, 2016 at 01:43PM View BBCode
Originally posted by moustique
This is just great. Now there's two. OK i get it. no learning curve for the new guys. Right from the start. We use their inexperience to our advantage. flood them with offers before they know how to figure out what makes a bad a good and a all-star player. Call it genius and on top of it all ooze arrogance. Have fun with the next wave of bots.
Are you kidding?
We can't even produce conclusive evidence that one person is "exploiting the new guys" and now you're throwing more empty accusations at people out of frustration.
Its like you half-read some of my argument and filled in the rest yourself based on what you THINK is going on here. I don't think anybody here is flooding the newbies with offers and rubbing their hands together while they cackle menacingly.
If you seriously think that's what's been happening then you've been watching too many movies.
If you can't handle that there's more than one way to run a team and want to leave the league or the site(oh god please) because the other owners don't play the way you want them to then good riddance.
Trades have winners and losers. One owner shouldn't have to walk on eggshells because they won the long term end of a few trades and upset the balance of power that everyone was so comfortable with before their arrival.
If a new owner makes questionable decisions that's on them - it's not my job, or ccox's job to explain to them the ramifications of that decision. There is a learning curve but most aren't going to be able to see it until they've been around a while. That's just part of the game.
Nothing abusive has transpired here. That much IS conclusive.
Once again check the voting results - ALL THREE say it the same
[Edited on 4-19-2016 by jrthecrusher]
moustique
April 19, 2016 at 01:55PM View BBCode
I'm sorry I did not want to implied that I'm going out. Been here since day one I won't leave. Never will until they pull the plug on the game. really sorry. But don't worry most of the time I'm pretty silent you won't hear from me that often
jrthecrusher
Its just frustrating to me to see a group of owners leading a witch hunt because they don't like someone.
There's a difference between questionable and reprehensible.
Does it make me cringe a little when I see a team get younger while maintaining peak competitiveness by way of questionable trades? You bet - that's just my pride that stings from knowing I'll have to work a little harder. It hurts but there's nothing wrong with it.
Does it make me cringe a little when an owner calls out other owners for making questionable decisions? You bet - that's just my compassion because I know there's a better way to get the point across. It hurts but there's nothing wrong with it
What I take issue with is a group waiting in the weeds for an owner to stick his head out and pouncing at every opening they get. That's targeting - and its something I find reprehensible, much more than trying to see if you can get better by helping someone in their ill-advised push for the top.
[Edited on 4-19-2016 by jrthecrusher]
April 19, 2016 at 02:06PM View BBCode
I'm not saying leave. I'm not demanding anything from anyone.Its just frustrating to me to see a group of owners leading a witch hunt because they don't like someone.
There's a difference between questionable and reprehensible.
Does it make me cringe a little when I see a team get younger while maintaining peak competitiveness by way of questionable trades? You bet - that's just my pride that stings from knowing I'll have to work a little harder. It hurts but there's nothing wrong with it.
Does it make me cringe a little when an owner calls out other owners for making questionable decisions? You bet - that's just my compassion because I know there's a better way to get the point across. It hurts but there's nothing wrong with it
What I take issue with is a group waiting in the weeds for an owner to stick his head out and pouncing at every opening they get. That's targeting - and its something I find reprehensible, much more than trying to see if you can get better by helping someone in their ill-advised push for the top.
[Edited on 4-19-2016 by jrthecrusher]
ccox
I'm not sure what you mean by my doing "episodic Coaching Points trading." I've never done one here. Even though they are perfectly legal in Dynasty, when I was new to this league and you JBL vets explained that you'd made a gentleman's agreement to ban CP trades, I have honored it.
Listen, I'm tired of arguing, everyone. I am here to have fun, too. I have never thought anyone was a "loser." That's simplistic and missing the point. My frustration is pretty simple. Some of you act as if my success is simply due to ripping folks off while I'm actually doing many things to help myself win that you either don't see or understand or are too frustrated to acknowledge, while you claim moral or skills high ground yet do things that are costing you now and in the future (which IMO is the actual source of your frustration, but since you don't see this...and are not doing as well as I am as a result...you're looking elsewhere for explanations and blaming me).
Here's an example of something that will cost an owner games: The OP of this thread currently has a D+ mentor rating for his young starting pitchers. New owners, note: That is far from optimal. Over an entire season, a D+ rating will stunt SPs anywhere from 8-15 Improvement Chances on average, compared to a C+ rating (which you want, minimum). If you're developing 4 young pitchers, that's 32-60 ICs lost...the potential aggregate equivalent of netting zero chances for an SP over an entire season. [url=http://simdynasty.com/player.jsp?id=11507044&statsorimps=imps]Tim Craft[/url], for example, could have 38+ ICs at this point. He has 31.94. By season's end, if the D+ rating stands, Tim will end up with 46-48 ICs...when he could have had 55+.
The OP has had that D+ SP rating for a while, but not the entire season, so his staff won't lose as many chances as it would have, but still...he is robbing his youth of improvement chances during their prime development years, turning possible A+/A- SPs into A/B+, potentially costing him many games during his tenure as owner. I've seen other owners here develop poorly, not just with pitchers but every player, by, say, benching OS 23 hitters who are slightly inferior now but would be far better to the vet who's starting, for example (when the owner's not even competing and needs to develop). Some of you (just like owners all over this sim) are missing out on 50-100+ ICs total that could be distributed to difference makers instead are burned on mediocrity.
These are just a few examples that are making your teams less potent. So when you don't make the playoffs or claim my success is cheating or rip-off artistry, yeah, I feel like whacking you over the head for missing the obvious. If my responses have seemed harsh it's because I'm trying to get through to you. Ideally, I want to play against teams that don't ignore this stuff and, as a consequence, make the wins more satisfying.
The thing is, I think the OP is one of the best players here. He makes smart, fair moves for the most part. He led the outcry against CP trading and I'm glad he did, because the game is more fun to me without them.
If some of you want to write off this post as snark or whatever, sit back and think about it a bit. I just spotlighted something that, if fixed, will help the OP and possibly cost me if we ever face up in the WS again. I've done the same thing in many posts, often in response to your ripping me. I don't point these things out to say "Haha, you're a loser!" Again, that's missing the point. I'm pointing them out so that maybe we all learn something. I think the OP and some of you are probably trying to do the same thing in your passive-aggressive attempt to tell new owners, "Hey, don't trade your draft pick for another's pick and vet if you're going to waive All-Stars," but your indirect attacks with "proof" that isn't didn't come across that way.
Anyway, I'm sorry if some of you feel that I ruined your country club or whatever, but I've paid my dues and brought my golf clubs to play and have fun just like you. Our styles are just different. Protest trades when you feel they're unfairly lopsided and let the league decide. But first, maybe do yourself a favor and take a look at your own team and see if maybe you're doing something that's holding you back.
Good luck all.
[Edited on 4-19-2016 by ccox]
April 19, 2016 at 03:47PM View BBCode
Originally posted by DemonicDoudou
I may be wrong, but when Ccoxx joined this league, nobody worried about his trade proposals. It took a couple of seasons to discover what type of trades he was doing, even an episodic Coaching Points trading...
I joined this league for fun and hope it'll return. Remember that it's just fantasy and even my beloved players are trapped in my computer. :)
Have fun!
I'm not sure what you mean by my doing "episodic Coaching Points trading." I've never done one here. Even though they are perfectly legal in Dynasty, when I was new to this league and you JBL vets explained that you'd made a gentleman's agreement to ban CP trades, I have honored it.
Listen, I'm tired of arguing, everyone. I am here to have fun, too. I have never thought anyone was a "loser." That's simplistic and missing the point. My frustration is pretty simple. Some of you act as if my success is simply due to ripping folks off while I'm actually doing many things to help myself win that you either don't see or understand or are too frustrated to acknowledge, while you claim moral or skills high ground yet do things that are costing you now and in the future (which IMO is the actual source of your frustration, but since you don't see this...and are not doing as well as I am as a result...you're looking elsewhere for explanations and blaming me).
Here's an example of something that will cost an owner games: The OP of this thread currently has a D+ mentor rating for his young starting pitchers. New owners, note: That is far from optimal. Over an entire season, a D+ rating will stunt SPs anywhere from 8-15 Improvement Chances on average, compared to a C+ rating (which you want, minimum). If you're developing 4 young pitchers, that's 32-60 ICs lost...the potential aggregate equivalent of netting zero chances for an SP over an entire season. [url=http://simdynasty.com/player.jsp?id=11507044&statsorimps=imps]Tim Craft[/url], for example, could have 38+ ICs at this point. He has 31.94. By season's end, if the D+ rating stands, Tim will end up with 46-48 ICs...when he could have had 55+.
The OP has had that D+ SP rating for a while, but not the entire season, so his staff won't lose as many chances as it would have, but still...he is robbing his youth of improvement chances during their prime development years, turning possible A+/A- SPs into A/B+, potentially costing him many games during his tenure as owner. I've seen other owners here develop poorly, not just with pitchers but every player, by, say, benching OS 23 hitters who are slightly inferior now but would be far better to the vet who's starting, for example (when the owner's not even competing and needs to develop). Some of you (just like owners all over this sim) are missing out on 50-100+ ICs total that could be distributed to difference makers instead are burned on mediocrity.
These are just a few examples that are making your teams less potent. So when you don't make the playoffs or claim my success is cheating or rip-off artistry, yeah, I feel like whacking you over the head for missing the obvious. If my responses have seemed harsh it's because I'm trying to get through to you. Ideally, I want to play against teams that don't ignore this stuff and, as a consequence, make the wins more satisfying.
The thing is, I think the OP is one of the best players here. He makes smart, fair moves for the most part. He led the outcry against CP trading and I'm glad he did, because the game is more fun to me without them.
If some of you want to write off this post as snark or whatever, sit back and think about it a bit. I just spotlighted something that, if fixed, will help the OP and possibly cost me if we ever face up in the WS again. I've done the same thing in many posts, often in response to your ripping me. I don't point these things out to say "Haha, you're a loser!" Again, that's missing the point. I'm pointing them out so that maybe we all learn something. I think the OP and some of you are probably trying to do the same thing in your passive-aggressive attempt to tell new owners, "Hey, don't trade your draft pick for another's pick and vet if you're going to waive All-Stars," but your indirect attacks with "proof" that isn't didn't come across that way.
Anyway, I'm sorry if some of you feel that I ruined your country club or whatever, but I've paid my dues and brought my golf clubs to play and have fun just like you. Our styles are just different. Protest trades when you feel they're unfairly lopsided and let the league decide. But first, maybe do yourself a favor and take a look at your own team and see if maybe you're doing something that's holding you back.
Good luck all.
[Edited on 4-19-2016 by ccox]
DemonicDoudou
Just to be sure I'm not that wrong, for the Coaching Points trade, here's the thread :
http://www.simdynasty.com/oldforum-viewthread.jsp?tid=373160
I don't blame you about it because you reversed it and understood the house-rules of this league.
April 19, 2016 at 04:24PM View BBCode
Originally posted by ccox
Originally posted by DemonicDoudou
I may be wrong, but when Ccoxx joined this league, nobody worried about his trade proposals. It took a couple of seasons to discover what type of trades he was doing, even an episodic Coaching Points trading...
I joined this league for fun and hope it'll return. Remember that it's just fantasy and even my beloved players are trapped in my computer. :)
Have fun!
I'm not sure what you mean by my doing "episodic Coaching Points trading." I've never done one here. Even though they are perfectly legal in Dynasty, when I was new to this league and you JBL vets explained that you'd made a gentleman's agreement to ban CP trades, I have honored it.
Listen, I'm tired of arguing. I am here to have fun, too. I have never thought anyone was a "loser." That's simplistic and missing the point. My frustration is pretty simple. Some of you act as if my success is simply due to ripping folks off while I'm actually doing many things to help myself win that you either don't see or understand or are too frustrated to acknowledge, while you claim some moral or skills high ground yet do things that are costing you now and in the future (which IMO is the actual source of your frustration, but because you're apparently unaware that you're hurting yourselves...and not doing as well as I am as a result...you're looking elsewhere for explanations and blaming me).
Here's an example of something that will cost an owner games: The OP of this thread currently has a D+ mentor rating for his young starting pitchers. For new owners, know that is far from optimal. Over an entire season, a D+ rating can cost SPs anywhere from 8-15 Improvement Chances on average, compared to a C+ rating (which you want, minimum). If you're developing 4 young pitchers, that's 32-60 ICs lost...the potential aggregate equivalent of zero chances for one of those pitchers over an entire season. [url=http://simdynasty.com/player.jsp?id=11507044&statsorimps=imps]Tim Craft[/url], for example, could have 38+ ICs at this point. He has 31.94. By season's end, if the D+ rating stands, Tim will end up with 46-48 ICs when he could have had 55+.
The OP has had that D+ SP rating for a while, but not the entire season, so his staff won't lose as many chances as it would have, but still...he is robbing his youth of improvement chances during their prime development years, turning potential A+/A- SPs into A/B+, potentially costing him many games during his tenure as owner. I've seen other owners here do the same thing, not just with pitchers but every player. By, say, benching OS 23 hitters who are slightly inferior now but would be far superior to the vet who's starting, for example...when the owner's not even competing and needs to develop that young guy.
These are just a few examples that are making your teams lose. So when you don't make the playoffs or see my success and claim it's because I'm a cheater or rip-off artist, yeah, I feel like whacking you over the head for not seeing what to me is obvious. If my response seems harsh it's because I'm trying to get through to you.
The thing is, I think the OP is one of the best players here. He makes smart, fair moves for the most part. He led the outcry against CP trading and I'm glad he did, because the game is more fun to me without them.
If some of you want to read what I wrote as snark or whatever, sit back and think about it a bit. I just pointed something out that, if fixed, will help the OP and possibly cost me in the future (if we face up in the WS again). I don't point these things out to say "Haha, you're a loser!" Again, that's missing the point. I'm pointing it out so that we all learn something and play in a healthier league we can be proud of. I think the OP and some of you are probably trying to do the same thing by telling new owners "Hey, don't trade your draft pick for another's pick and vet if you're going to waive good players," but you're doing so indirectly. Instead, it came across as an attack on me, as "proof" of my unearned success in this sim, when I had nothing to do with his transactions after the fact.
Anyway, I'm sorry if some of you feel that I ruined your country club or whatever, but I've paid my dues and brought my golf clubs to play and have fun just like you. Our styles are just different. Protest trades when you feel they're unfairly lopsided and let the league decide. If things don't go your way, it's probably best to move on. But first, maybe do yourself a favor and take a look at your own team and see if maybe you're doing something that's hindering your success.
Good luck all.
Just to be sure I'm not that wrong, for the Coaching Points trade, here's the thread :
http://www.simdynasty.com/oldforum-viewthread.jsp?tid=373160
I don't blame you about it because you reversed it and understood the house-rules of this league.
ccox
April 19, 2016 at 04:33PM View BBCode
Yeah, we did that one trade and self-reversed after learning about the house rule. "Episodic" means occasionally, by the way. Didn't want anyone to get the idea that I was sneaking CP trades or something hehe (after agreeing I would avoid them).
blackmet
Never found a problem. The pitcher developed horribly under him, but it wasn't his fault (and the guy ended up being a pretty good pitcher anyway). And, yes, I am for the "NO CP TRADE" agreement...reason being that if you can't find 5 players worth CP's in your minor leagues at all times, you're drafting wrong and shouldn't be rewarded for it by being able to develop other teams players in exchange for rentals to keep you in contention.
JBech, if you're reading this, I'll reiterate what I said before -- if you think something feels off on a trade, take it to the main boards and get some impartial advice. A big red alert is when they're throwing 5 pieces at you for 1 or 2 of yours...chances are almost none of them are any good. If they can't wait a couple of days for your decision and withdraw it, then you know it's a crap offer anyway, so who cares if you don't make the deal?
April 19, 2016 at 11:47PM View BBCode
I think I did a CP trade w/ CCOX in another Dynasty League. I did random checks to make sure he was keeping 5 on the guy and that his minors didn't suddenly have 20 players, diluting the CP effect.Never found a problem. The pitcher developed horribly under him, but it wasn't his fault (and the guy ended up being a pretty good pitcher anyway). And, yes, I am for the "NO CP TRADE" agreement...reason being that if you can't find 5 players worth CP's in your minor leagues at all times, you're drafting wrong and shouldn't be rewarded for it by being able to develop other teams players in exchange for rentals to keep you in contention.
JBech, if you're reading this, I'll reiterate what I said before -- if you think something feels off on a trade, take it to the main boards and get some impartial advice. A big red alert is when they're throwing 5 pieces at you for 1 or 2 of yours...chances are almost none of them are any good. If they can't wait a couple of days for your decision and withdraw it, then you know it's a crap offer anyway, so who cares if you don't make the deal?
Admin
There are no two players anywhere in this game that value players in the same way. At the same time, yes, there are new owners to Dynasty leagues who don't have a clear idea of player values. We have a mechanism for dealing with that: the trade reporting system. That is a far better way of dealing with a trade issue than putting accusations out in public.
As long as there is baseball, there will be good trades and bad trades. Everyone looks through their crystal ball a bit differently, and sometimes it means the Red Sox trade Babe Ruth to the Yankees for effectively some coach points.
One important thing to note is not only that everyone values trades differently, but everyone also values the very ACT of trading differently. For some owners, trading is the heart of the game, and these owners are usually much more aggressive traders, starting with unbalanced trades to open a dialogue expecting a counter. Sometimes, through inexperience or a different brand of crystal ball, the other owner accepts these trades without a counter. It is part of the game.
If an owner is taking advantage of a new player, report it using the Report Trade Abuse feature and the league will deal with it. But accusatory threads only cause ill will for everyone as people feel forced to take sides. They never end well, nor achieve the aim the frustrated parties hope to achieve.
Chris/Admin
April 25, 2016 at 02:19AM View BBCode
This thread is a perfect example of why we have rules against this sort of trade discussion.There are no two players anywhere in this game that value players in the same way. At the same time, yes, there are new owners to Dynasty leagues who don't have a clear idea of player values. We have a mechanism for dealing with that: the trade reporting system. That is a far better way of dealing with a trade issue than putting accusations out in public.
As long as there is baseball, there will be good trades and bad trades. Everyone looks through their crystal ball a bit differently, and sometimes it means the Red Sox trade Babe Ruth to the Yankees for effectively some coach points.
One important thing to note is not only that everyone values trades differently, but everyone also values the very ACT of trading differently. For some owners, trading is the heart of the game, and these owners are usually much more aggressive traders, starting with unbalanced trades to open a dialogue expecting a counter. Sometimes, through inexperience or a different brand of crystal ball, the other owner accepts these trades without a counter. It is part of the game.
If an owner is taking advantage of a new player, report it using the Report Trade Abuse feature and the league will deal with it. But accusatory threads only cause ill will for everyone as people feel forced to take sides. They never end well, nor achieve the aim the frustrated parties hope to achieve.
Chris/Admin
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