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LF defensive attributes vs. RF defensive attributes.
Low Range, High Arm
High Range, Low Arm
I've heard arguments for each one in each position.
My suspicion is that on the surface, it doesn't really matter. But I'm curious as to what your experience has been with it?
Q for Veteran Owners Who Pay Attention to Defense
May 21, 2015 at 02:51AM View BBCode
So, like Sean on Psych: "I've heard it both ways."LF defensive attributes vs. RF defensive attributes.
Low Range, High Arm
High Range, Low Arm
I've heard arguments for each one in each position.
My suspicion is that on the surface, it doesn't really matter. But I'm curious as to what your experience has been with it?
tworoosters
May 21, 2015 at 03:01AM View BBCode
I don't really think it matters, in MLB the big arm goes in RF but in the sim I have seen nothing that leads me to believe there is an advantage to either skill set.
loonatic
You have to go through the play-by-play to see this. I think this is one of the important but hidden aspects of defense in the sim.
I agree with tworoosters that I haven't seen any difference between RF or LF arm in this regard.
May 21, 2015 at 01:09PM View BBCode
I think the largest benefit of a big OF arm never shows up in the boxscore or stat sheet - runners already on base don't try to take an extra base, such as going from 1st to 3rd on a single. If a single is hit to an outfielder with a C arm, a runner will advance from 1st to 3rd nearly 100% of the time. If a single is hit to an outfielder with an A arm, a runner will advance from 1st to 3rd perhaps only 25% of the time.You have to go through the play-by-play to see this. I think this is one of the important but hidden aspects of defense in the sim.
I agree with tworoosters that I haven't seen any difference between RF or LF arm in this regard.
ballmark
May 21, 2015 at 03:37PM View BBCode
If Arm makes no difference, what about Range? Do I put the lower Range in LF, or would that depend on ballpark design?
FishingCat
For the arm, out of habit I tend to put the stronger arm in RF. But what do I really think would be best in the sim? I think the better arm should be in LF. There are just way more balls hit to LF.
May 21, 2015 at 05:36PM View BBCode
Most hitters are pull hitters, and most hitters are right handed so the better range goes to LF. I don't think ball park design could make up the difference no matter what it is.For the arm, out of habit I tend to put the stronger arm in RF. But what do I really think would be best in the sim? I think the better arm should be in LF. There are just way more balls hit to LF.
FishingCat
May 21, 2015 at 05:38PM View BBCode
Let me rephrase that. There are consistently more balls hit to LF.
mr1313
May 21, 2015 at 08:11PM View BBCode
It's a longer throw from RF to 3B yeah there are more balls hit to LF generally speaking because there are more RH hitters but the arm plays in RF because of the length of throw from a runner going to 1st to 3rd or tagging from 2nd.
loonatic
That's true in real baseball but I haven't seen any evidence that is is true in the sim. From the play-by-play it looks like runners go from 1st to 3rd at about the same rate when there is a single to RF or a single to LF when arm is the same at the two positions.
May 21, 2015 at 08:49PM View BBCode
Originally posted by mr1313
It's a longer throw from RF to 3B yeah there are more balls hit to LF generally speaking because there are more RH hitters but the arm plays in RF because of the length of throw from a runner going to 1st to 3rd or tagging from 2nd.
That's true in real baseball but I haven't seen any evidence that is is true in the sim. From the play-by-play it looks like runners go from 1st to 3rd at about the same rate when there is a single to RF or a single to LF when arm is the same at the two positions.
Bonnie_Brae
I'm a pretty huge believer in getting the best range possible at every position though.
I think defense is discounted too much by most owners on the site.
(Willy D will be here soon to tell me I'm overemphasizing defense, and he has had way more success than me).
[Edited on 5-22-2015 by Bonnie_Brae]
May 22, 2015 at 02:47AM View BBCode
Among OF types, I tend to put the best range in CF, best arm in RF, and worst fielder overall in LF.I'm a pretty huge believer in getting the best range possible at every position though.
I think defense is discounted too much by most owners on the site.
(Willy D will be here soon to tell me I'm overemphasizing defense, and he has had way more success than me).
[Edited on 5-22-2015 by Bonnie_Brae]
larrygc
The only positions I feel a good throwing arm is not needed is second and first. I believe catcher, third, short, right and center should have as good an arm playing it as possible.
In fact third base and shortstop play arm strength is not punished as much as it should be in this game. I have survived in some emergency cases with average arms in both positions and that's not right.
Range for the shortstop should be factored more I believe. That would increase ther value of good hit no field players more than now.
May 22, 2015 at 02:58AM View BBCode
I am a believer in range and speed.The only positions I feel a good throwing arm is not needed is second and first. I believe catcher, third, short, right and center should have as good an arm playing it as possible.
In fact third base and shortstop play arm strength is not punished as much as it should be in this game. I have survived in some emergency cases with average arms in both positions and that's not right.
Range for the shortstop should be factored more I believe. That would increase ther value of good hit no field players more than now.
tm4559
also, the defensive stats don't really bear it out. if you get the player rankings up, rate by stats for defense, get all the oufielders up, you find the total chances for rf, lf, and cf to be very close (its a better comparison if you get them from the same team).
here are three from the same team:
rf, good arm
http://simdynasty.com/player.jsp?id=11275539&statsorimps=fielding
303 chances, 9 assists, 4 double plays (the double plays are also counted as assists, right? all the double plays are at the plate, so, really its only 5 runners thrown at third, or at home for a single out for a runner trying to stretch. so probably a lot of plays just don't happen against a good arm, the runners just don't run. like the way the base stealers don't run against the big catcher arm. anyway, 162 games and 303 chances is 1.87 chances a game, as far as balls hit to rf.
cf, average arm
http://simdynasty.com/player.jsp?id=11233122&statsorimps=fielding
139 games, 330 tc (2.37 per game) 10 assists, 1 dp. perhaps more assists because more runners go. the same way a b or b+ arm catcher gets more thrown out, runners actually run.
lf, average arm
http://simdynasty.com/player.jsp?id=11303459&statsorimps=fielding
148 games, 292 tc (1.97 per game, a little bit more than right field, not a lot, but some), 6 assists, 1 dp (the runners are not supposed to try to stretch as much on balls to left field, i mean, it doesn't make any sense, we are supposed to be simulating baseball, and runners don't really try for third when the left fielder is standing right there looking at them.
how about a right fielder with a bad arm? should we see more action?
http://simdynasty.com/player.jsp?id=11215284&statsorimps=fielding
2 assists. we would think we would see more assists. all the speed in the simulation could account for not many assists here, it is fairly standard to se teams with red letter speed right through the lineups. we could say, a thing like this, it can barely throw out a runner with decent speed, and we might assume, or prove if we went through the boxes, that teams just run wild on this rightfielder, or on a rightfielder with an arm like this.
left fielder with a fairly bad arm (c)?
http://simdynasty.com/player.jsp?id=11367345&statsorimps=fielding
6 assists.
a left fielder with a great arm? (yes, there are some out there, sim teams are over equipped, sometimes, in ways real baesball teams seldom are)
http://simdynasty.com/player.jsp?id=11178482&statsorimps=fielding
9 assists. given the luck factor, that is, sometimes stuff just happens for no really good reason, the difference between nine and 6, over a whole season, is just not relevant really, its well within the margin for error, if you want to think of that way.
outfield defense, its kind of fun. but the bottom line is, folks use the position cp and the easy conversion in the majors to get the good defenders to the infield, where their skills are just much more valuable. good defensive skills are just simply wasted in the outfield. its a luxury.
May 22, 2015 at 04:20PM View BBCode
Originally posted by loonatic
Originally posted by mr1313
It's a longer throw from RF to 3B yeah there are more balls hit to LF generally speaking because there are more RH hitters but the arm plays in RF because of the length of throw from a runner going to 1st to 3rd or tagging from 2nd.
That's true in real baseball but I haven't seen any evidence that is is true in the sim. From the play-by-play it looks like runners go from 1st to 3rd at about the same rate when there is a single to RF or a single to LF when arm is the same at the two positions.
also, the defensive stats don't really bear it out. if you get the player rankings up, rate by stats for defense, get all the oufielders up, you find the total chances for rf, lf, and cf to be very close (its a better comparison if you get them from the same team).
here are three from the same team:
rf, good arm
http://simdynasty.com/player.jsp?id=11275539&statsorimps=fielding
303 chances, 9 assists, 4 double plays (the double plays are also counted as assists, right? all the double plays are at the plate, so, really its only 5 runners thrown at third, or at home for a single out for a runner trying to stretch. so probably a lot of plays just don't happen against a good arm, the runners just don't run. like the way the base stealers don't run against the big catcher arm. anyway, 162 games and 303 chances is 1.87 chances a game, as far as balls hit to rf.
cf, average arm
http://simdynasty.com/player.jsp?id=11233122&statsorimps=fielding
139 games, 330 tc (2.37 per game) 10 assists, 1 dp. perhaps more assists because more runners go. the same way a b or b+ arm catcher gets more thrown out, runners actually run.
lf, average arm
http://simdynasty.com/player.jsp?id=11303459&statsorimps=fielding
148 games, 292 tc (1.97 per game, a little bit more than right field, not a lot, but some), 6 assists, 1 dp (the runners are not supposed to try to stretch as much on balls to left field, i mean, it doesn't make any sense, we are supposed to be simulating baseball, and runners don't really try for third when the left fielder is standing right there looking at them.
how about a right fielder with a bad arm? should we see more action?
http://simdynasty.com/player.jsp?id=11215284&statsorimps=fielding
2 assists. we would think we would see more assists. all the speed in the simulation could account for not many assists here, it is fairly standard to se teams with red letter speed right through the lineups. we could say, a thing like this, it can barely throw out a runner with decent speed, and we might assume, or prove if we went through the boxes, that teams just run wild on this rightfielder, or on a rightfielder with an arm like this.
left fielder with a fairly bad arm (c)?
http://simdynasty.com/player.jsp?id=11367345&statsorimps=fielding
6 assists.
a left fielder with a great arm? (yes, there are some out there, sim teams are over equipped, sometimes, in ways real baesball teams seldom are)
http://simdynasty.com/player.jsp?id=11178482&statsorimps=fielding
9 assists. given the luck factor, that is, sometimes stuff just happens for no really good reason, the difference between nine and 6, over a whole season, is just not relevant really, its well within the margin for error, if you want to think of that way.
outfield defense, its kind of fun. but the bottom line is, folks use the position cp and the easy conversion in the majors to get the good defenders to the infield, where their skills are just much more valuable. good defensive skills are just simply wasted in the outfield. its a luxury.
WillyD
To all the newbies out there...speed, in SimD, has no influence on defensive ability. Zero. Zilch.
May 22, 2015 at 06:37PM View BBCode
Originally posted by larrygc
I am a believer in range and speed.
To all the newbies out there...speed, in SimD, has no influence on defensive ability. Zero. Zilch.
WillyD
Hi Ezra, I agree with everything you said.
But please don't tell people that they should build their stadium to suit their OF defense...:lol:
May 22, 2015 at 06:39PM View BBCode
Originally posted by Bonnie_Brae
Among OF types, I tend to put the best range in CF, best arm in RF, and worst fielder overall in LF.
I'm a pretty huge believer in getting the best range possible at every position though.
I think defense is discounted too much by most owners on the site.
(Willy D will be here soon to tell me I'm overemphasizing defense, and he has had way more success than me).
Hi Ezra, I agree with everything you said.
But please don't tell people that they should build their stadium to suit their OF defense...:lol:
tm4559
May 22, 2015 at 07:10PM View BBCode
the only thing i ever got anything out of with the park, was loading the team with right handed hitters (good ones, power hitters) and then building a home park that just absolutely punished the left handed hitters, and suited the right handers. (old) yankee stadium reversed, with left field pulled all the way in and right field back in queens somewhere. that is fun.
loonatic
Using the play-by-play I tallied every hit to the outfield over a full season for two players.
Player A started 148 games in LF with an "A" arm:
There were 62 singles hit to player A with a runner on first.
Runner advanced from 1st to 2nd: 45 times (73%)
Runner advanced from 1st to 3rd: 17 times (27%)
Runner was thrown out trying to advance from 1st to 3rd: 0 times (0%)
Player B started 149 games in LF with a "C" arm:
There were 65 singles hit to player B with a runner on first.
Runner advanced from 1st to 2nd: 0 times (0%)
Runner advanced from 1st to 3rd: 62 times (95%)
Runner was thrown out trying to advance from 1st to 3rd: 3 times (5%)
If you looked in the stat sheet for the season it would appear that Player B did more defensively, as it would have 3 OF assists compared to 0 OF assists for Player A. But given an opportunity, runners attempted to take an extra base EVERY SINGLE TIME on Player B. If you started Player B instead of Player A in LF over a season, it is like the equivalent of allowing runners to steal 3rd base about 45 extra times over that season.
[Edited on 5-23-2015 by loonatic]
May 22, 2015 at 10:47PM View BBCode
Here's an example of what I meant above about hidden aspects of OF defense.Using the play-by-play I tallied every hit to the outfield over a full season for two players.
Player A started 148 games in LF with an "A" arm:
There were 62 singles hit to player A with a runner on first.
Runner advanced from 1st to 2nd: 45 times (73%)
Runner advanced from 1st to 3rd: 17 times (27%)
Runner was thrown out trying to advance from 1st to 3rd: 0 times (0%)
Player B started 149 games in LF with a "C" arm:
There were 65 singles hit to player B with a runner on first.
Runner advanced from 1st to 2nd: 0 times (0%)
Runner advanced from 1st to 3rd: 62 times (95%)
Runner was thrown out trying to advance from 1st to 3rd: 3 times (5%)
If you looked in the stat sheet for the season it would appear that Player B did more defensively, as it would have 3 OF assists compared to 0 OF assists for Player A. But given an opportunity, runners attempted to take an extra base EVERY SINGLE TIME on Player B. If you started Player B instead of Player A in LF over a season, it is like the equivalent of allowing runners to steal 3rd base about 45 extra times over that season.
[Edited on 5-23-2015 by loonatic]
WillyD
May 22, 2015 at 10:57PM View BBCode
Awesome work loonatic! I'd love to see what a B arm would do over an entire season, as a C arm is obviously unacceptable. I wonder if any of my LFers have a B arm. I may compile a season, if I have one.
loonatic
If only I could figure out how to beat you in the PWL playoffs :)
May 22, 2015 at 11:06PM View BBCode
Originally posted by WillyD
Awesome work loonatic! I'd love to see what a B arm would do over an entire season, as a C arm is obviously unacceptable. I wonder if any of my LFers have a B arm. I may compile a season, if I have one.
If only I could figure out how to beat you in the PWL playoffs :)
WillyD
You could trade me a C arm left fielder.
May 22, 2015 at 11:09PM View BBCode
Originally posted by loonatic
Originally posted by WillyD
Awesome work loonatic! I'd love to see what a B arm would do over an entire season, as a C arm is obviously unacceptable. I wonder if any of my LFers have a B arm. I may compile a season, if I have one.
If only I could figure out how to beat you in the PWL playoffs :)
You could trade me a C arm left fielder.
FishingCat
May 23, 2015 at 01:33AM View BBCode
Loonatic have you ever done the same thing for rightfielders?
ballmark
Of course, Arm also plays an IF part (SS, 3b) and there is certainly a Range bit to be factored into the OF, I would imagine (LF, CF).
Poor Range, Strong Arm outfielders - from the data/evidence presented - should be in RF.
Is that - on balance - fair to say?
May 23, 2015 at 01:54AM View BBCode
It seems that clearly the understanding we should walk away with here is that Arm is critical in the OF and Range is critical in the infield.Of course, Arm also plays an IF part (SS, 3b) and there is certainly a Range bit to be factored into the OF, I would imagine (LF, CF).
Poor Range, Strong Arm outfielders - from the data/evidence presented - should be in RF.
Is that - on balance - fair to say?
WillyD
May 23, 2015 at 03:04AM View BBCode
I would say that you don't want any arms in the OF below at least a B level, maybe even higher. And arm is very important in the infield, possibly on par with range (except at 1st base).
tm4559
otherwise, the throwing errors kind of exist completely seperately from that other range based stuf. so a player (a ss or a 3b, for example) can get lots of plus plays (great play by such and such) and also make a good number of throwing errors.
folks will naturally put the a+/c (range/arm) or even worse arm player at first base. where does the other one go, if you have two of them? second base, of course. second basemen just don't make many throwing errors. the range really reigns supreme in the infield. less errors and more plus plays. its easy.
the throwing errors, from the ss and 3b, kind of complicate the whole thing. another thing that really complicates the whole business is, from one year to another, the defensive stats for infielders, they can really swing from extremes on the plus/minus, that is, it will be like +6 or more and then go to -3 or more in the next season. on the same set of skills. again, folks need to always remember, the luck factor. each defensive chance or scenario, whatever you want to call it, is a seperate event. and you can get a string of what you might call outliers and that string can be long.
the defensive stuff is fun, truly. especially when it gives out results like looney showed us up there. seriously, some of that has to come from an overabundance of speed. its completely absurd that 62 times out of 65 runners on first base advanced to third when a single was hit to left field. i bet you it has never, ever, happened in real baseball. its ludicrous.
May 23, 2015 at 03:17PM View BBCode
the infiedlers take lots of chances, so there really are a few different things going on. the (higher) range, at any position, leads to more plus plays, less errors, and the higher the range on the ss/2b combination, the higher the double play rate. the arm comes in, naturally, on throwing errors (i believe it factors lightly into double plays, i seem to recall that, but the range was the dominant thing, for sure).otherwise, the throwing errors kind of exist completely seperately from that other range based stuf. so a player (a ss or a 3b, for example) can get lots of plus plays (great play by such and such) and also make a good number of throwing errors.
folks will naturally put the a+/c (range/arm) or even worse arm player at first base. where does the other one go, if you have two of them? second base, of course. second basemen just don't make many throwing errors. the range really reigns supreme in the infield. less errors and more plus plays. its easy.
the throwing errors, from the ss and 3b, kind of complicate the whole thing. another thing that really complicates the whole business is, from one year to another, the defensive stats for infielders, they can really swing from extremes on the plus/minus, that is, it will be like +6 or more and then go to -3 or more in the next season. on the same set of skills. again, folks need to always remember, the luck factor. each defensive chance or scenario, whatever you want to call it, is a seperate event. and you can get a string of what you might call outliers and that string can be long.
the defensive stuff is fun, truly. especially when it gives out results like looney showed us up there. seriously, some of that has to come from an overabundance of speed. its completely absurd that 62 times out of 65 runners on first base advanced to third when a single was hit to left field. i bet you it has never, ever, happened in real baseball. its ludicrous.
WillyD
It just shows how much the stretching thing needs to be fixed. It was never really fully implemented anyways. Has it been an improvement? Yes. But it really needs to be worked on a lot more.
May 23, 2015 at 03:21PM View BBCode
Originally posted by tm4559
its completely absurd that 62 times out of 65 runners on first base advanced to third when a single was hit to left field. i bet you it has never, ever, happened in real baseball. its ludicrous.
It just shows how much the stretching thing needs to be fixed. It was never really fully implemented anyways. Has it been an improvement? Yes. But it really needs to be worked on a lot more.
loonatic
Player C started 112 games in RF with an "A-" arm:
There were 49 singles hit to player C with a runner on first.
Runner advanced from 1st to 2nd: 37 times (76%)
Runner advanced from 1st to 3rd: 10 times (20%)
Runner was thrown out trying to advance from 1st to 3rd: 2 times (4%)
Player D started 162 games in RF with a "C-" arm:
There were 85 singles hit to player D with a runner on first.
Runner advanced from 1st to 2nd: 0 times (0%)
Runner advanced from 1st to 3rd: 83 times (98%)
Runner was thrown out trying to advance from 1st to 3rd: 2 times (2%)
The patterns look fairly similar for LF and RF with similar arms.
[Edited on 5-23-2015 by loonatic]
May 23, 2015 at 03:22PM View BBCode
OK, I did some tallies for a few right fielders:Player C started 112 games in RF with an "A-" arm:
There were 49 singles hit to player C with a runner on first.
Runner advanced from 1st to 2nd: 37 times (76%)
Runner advanced from 1st to 3rd: 10 times (20%)
Runner was thrown out trying to advance from 1st to 3rd: 2 times (4%)
Player D started 162 games in RF with a "C-" arm:
There were 85 singles hit to player D with a runner on first.
Runner advanced from 1st to 2nd: 0 times (0%)
Runner advanced from 1st to 3rd: 83 times (98%)
Runner was thrown out trying to advance from 1st to 3rd: 2 times (2%)
The patterns look fairly similar for LF and RF with similar arms.
[Edited on 5-23-2015 by loonatic]