 |
View Old Forum Thread
Old Forum Index » Football Beta Testing » Football Beta Test Discussion » Role- definition in rules v Role on player cards
Closer
Roles
While on the field, a player fills a particular role. In some cases, the role is the same as the position, i.e. a player with the Quarterback position plays the Quarterback role. For some positions, the role simply determines the exact position a player occupies in a formation, for example a player at the Guard position may fill the role of either Left Guard or Right Guard. In other cases, a role determines a particular specialization within a role, such as Fullback vs. Halfback. Finally, special teams units may have specialized roles such as the Holder that holds the ball for placekicks, or a Kick Returner which is normally filled by a wide receiver, running back or cornerback. The roles used in each formation are displayed in the formation preview on the Depth Chart page. A player's Player Card shows the player's skill level at the most common roles, and whichever grade is highest (with certain exceptions) is shown as his Best Role on the roster page.
I must say the more I try to make sense of this the less success I have.
Roles
While on the field, a player fills a particular role. In some cases, the role is the same as the position, i.e. a player with the Quarterback position plays the Quarterback role. OK, a player has a position, thats what his player card says he is a QB. ex. #1 Dennis Nix, QB Winnipeg Jets. And he has a "Total Rating A-" which I assume is his rating as a QB because that's his position.
So "Role" = "something a player fills while on the field" "Position is something a player is." Sometimes the something a player fills is the same as what a player is.
For some positions, the role simply determines the exact position a player occupies in a formation, for example a player at the Guard position may fill the role of either Left Guard or Right Guard. OK, now for some positions (but we don't know which) "Role" doesn't = the something a player fills while on the field, but "Role" = the exact spot a player occupies in a formation. ex. Left Guard or Right Guard. However, his position as stated on the player card simply says Guard. Under Roles on the player guard his rating simply says Guard and a rating. So how does Role somehow delineate RG or LG?
This is getting confusing. Is my problem a case of using the words "position", "role", "field", "formation" interchangably, loosely?
Are there definite definitions for each of these terms?
What exactly do those ratings under "Roles" represent? EXE? If the total skill ratings of a QB gives him an A- Total Rating and also an A- rating under "Roles" are they representing the same thing? If a HB's card skill ratings total rating is A-, and he has a Role rating of QB A-, what exactly gives him the Role rating? The sum of his skill ratings? Or just the QB type skill ratings?
Somehow this is all not coming together for me.
Role- definition in rules v Role on player cards
April 02, 2014 at 07:31PM View BBCode
Now that we've been having these discussions and roles and positions and changing positions, it led me to go back and read the rule's explanation of "Roles", and here it is:Roles
While on the field, a player fills a particular role. In some cases, the role is the same as the position, i.e. a player with the Quarterback position plays the Quarterback role. For some positions, the role simply determines the exact position a player occupies in a formation, for example a player at the Guard position may fill the role of either Left Guard or Right Guard. In other cases, a role determines a particular specialization within a role, such as Fullback vs. Halfback. Finally, special teams units may have specialized roles such as the Holder that holds the ball for placekicks, or a Kick Returner which is normally filled by a wide receiver, running back or cornerback. The roles used in each formation are displayed in the formation preview on the Depth Chart page. A player's Player Card shows the player's skill level at the most common roles, and whichever grade is highest (with certain exceptions) is shown as his Best Role on the roster page.
I must say the more I try to make sense of this the less success I have.
Roles
While on the field, a player fills a particular role. In some cases, the role is the same as the position, i.e. a player with the Quarterback position plays the Quarterback role. OK, a player has a position, thats what his player card says he is a QB. ex. #1 Dennis Nix, QB Winnipeg Jets. And he has a "Total Rating A-" which I assume is his rating as a QB because that's his position.
So "Role" = "something a player fills while on the field" "Position is something a player is." Sometimes the something a player fills is the same as what a player is.
For some positions, the role simply determines the exact position a player occupies in a formation, for example a player at the Guard position may fill the role of either Left Guard or Right Guard. OK, now for some positions (but we don't know which) "Role" doesn't = the something a player fills while on the field, but "Role" = the exact spot a player occupies in a formation. ex. Left Guard or Right Guard. However, his position as stated on the player card simply says Guard. Under Roles on the player guard his rating simply says Guard and a rating. So how does Role somehow delineate RG or LG?
This is getting confusing. Is my problem a case of using the words "position", "role", "field", "formation" interchangably, loosely?
Are there definite definitions for each of these terms?
What exactly do those ratings under "Roles" represent? EXE? If the total skill ratings of a QB gives him an A- Total Rating and also an A- rating under "Roles" are they representing the same thing? If a HB's card skill ratings total rating is A-, and he has a Role rating of QB A-, what exactly gives him the Role rating? The sum of his skill ratings? Or just the QB type skill ratings?
Somehow this is all not coming together for me.
Admin
G is a position and RG and LG are roles, with a parent position of G. There is zero difference between how RG's and LG's are rated, so the only purpose of differentiating them is to specify where they are lined up, because every single position on the field must have a unique role.
Similarly, T is a position and RT and LT are roles with a parent position of T. However, LT's and RT's are rated differently; Agility and Pass Blocking are more important to an LT and Strength and Run Blocking are more important to a RT. The player's rating at T is approximately an average of his RT and LT ratings.
Safety works the same way with FS and SS, with the overall S role being an average of the FF and SS ratings.
Now with linebackers it starts to get more complicated. You have the LB position. Within LB are the ILB and OLB roles, which are rated differently, and the LB rating is an average of the OLB and ILB ratings. However, there are potentially multiple OLB's or ILB's on the field, so there are specific roles of SOLB or WOLB (Strong side or weak side OLB) and MLB (Middle LB). the new 3-4 dispenses with the MLB and replaces him with an SILB and WILB. You will generally not find any football reference use the terms SILB or WILB; they will usually just call them ILB's or possibly LILB and RILB (Left and right ILB). I call them strong side o weak side because the defensive formation flips if the offense lines up in a formation with the strong side on the left rather than the right except for the CB's.
So linebackers have a specific role (SOLB, WILB, etc), a parent role (ILB) and a parent position (LB). Now, SILB, MLB and WILB are all rated the same as each other, so generally I recommend that people just set their ILB depth chart and let MLB or WILB/SILB fill from there.
So how do you know which roles are rated the same or differently? Look at the Position Training drop down. Note that there is only an entry for G, but separate entries for LT and RT. So all G's are equal but all T's are not.
Now, your final example: An RB with a total rating of A- and a QB rating of A-. His QB rating is based upon all of his skills, with the exception of only counting 25% of his Execution. If this player was able to change position to QB, his total rating might actually go up a bit because he'll get to count his full Execution. So an RB with an A- rating at HB and an A- rating at QB would possibly end up being a QB with an A rating at QB and a B+ rating at HB if he changed positions.
Why all this confusion? Because, as noted, each player on the field must have a unique role so the simulation can locate him. It's not good enough to set a player in a formation as an LB, or even as an OLB; the sim has to know that he is on the strong side of the field playing as an outer linebacker. As an extreme example, look at the on-side kicking formation; there are six players for the HT (Hands Team) role in the formation, but you won't find anyone just marked HT, there are marked HT1, HT2, etc. You have an HT depth chart where these players are pulled from, but if you really want a specific person in the HT3 slot you can go to the formation depth chart and put him there.
The simulation currently recognizes 55 different on-field roles, many of which are not actually in use yet, pus a couple of "depth chart parent roles) (ILB and OLB) that don't appear on field and yet aren't completely positions, and finally 14 positions, some of which have on-field roles with the same names (QB, C, TE, P and K I think are the only ones).
So, in summary:
Position: The skillset a player possesses in his EXE attribute.
Depth-Chart Parent Role: A role that exists for roles that have multiple specific roles to pull from. These will be the same as either a position or a specific role, with the exception of ILB, OLB, and HT. Depth chart Parent Roles have a Position as a parent.
Specific role: A designation that may include both the specific job of a player on the field and his location within a formation. This may happen to have the same name as its depth chart parent role or position.
The baseball sim sort of has the same thing going on, where there is only a position for Pitcher, and Relief Pitcher and Starting Pitcher are "depth chart roles", which are then split into "specific roles" (or "on-field roles") of 1st Starter, 2nd Starter, etc for SP, and Long Relief, Middle Relief, etc. for RP. If I had designed the sim, I might have only had a position for OF, with LF, RF and CF being "Roles". Some games do handle OF's in this fashion.
Hopefully this makes some sense. I should look at other games and see how they word things, i.e does Madden call the the left or weak-side outer linebacker an LOLB, an SOLB, just an OLB, or just an LB? Do they call LOLB a "position"? I have Madden '08 (I don't have a console, Madden '08 was the last PC version), I should boot it up and see if there is a better way to word/name things.
Chris
April 03, 2014 at 06:34PM View BBCode
Let's look at guards, tackles and safeties for a moment.G is a position and RG and LG are roles, with a parent position of G. There is zero difference between how RG's and LG's are rated, so the only purpose of differentiating them is to specify where they are lined up, because every single position on the field must have a unique role.
Similarly, T is a position and RT and LT are roles with a parent position of T. However, LT's and RT's are rated differently; Agility and Pass Blocking are more important to an LT and Strength and Run Blocking are more important to a RT. The player's rating at T is approximately an average of his RT and LT ratings.
Safety works the same way with FS and SS, with the overall S role being an average of the FF and SS ratings.
Now with linebackers it starts to get more complicated. You have the LB position. Within LB are the ILB and OLB roles, which are rated differently, and the LB rating is an average of the OLB and ILB ratings. However, there are potentially multiple OLB's or ILB's on the field, so there are specific roles of SOLB or WOLB (Strong side or weak side OLB) and MLB (Middle LB). the new 3-4 dispenses with the MLB and replaces him with an SILB and WILB. You will generally not find any football reference use the terms SILB or WILB; they will usually just call them ILB's or possibly LILB and RILB (Left and right ILB). I call them strong side o weak side because the defensive formation flips if the offense lines up in a formation with the strong side on the left rather than the right except for the CB's.
So linebackers have a specific role (SOLB, WILB, etc), a parent role (ILB) and a parent position (LB). Now, SILB, MLB and WILB are all rated the same as each other, so generally I recommend that people just set their ILB depth chart and let MLB or WILB/SILB fill from there.
So how do you know which roles are rated the same or differently? Look at the Position Training drop down. Note that there is only an entry for G, but separate entries for LT and RT. So all G's are equal but all T's are not.
Now, your final example: An RB with a total rating of A- and a QB rating of A-. His QB rating is based upon all of his skills, with the exception of only counting 25% of his Execution. If this player was able to change position to QB, his total rating might actually go up a bit because he'll get to count his full Execution. So an RB with an A- rating at HB and an A- rating at QB would possibly end up being a QB with an A rating at QB and a B+ rating at HB if he changed positions.
Why all this confusion? Because, as noted, each player on the field must have a unique role so the simulation can locate him. It's not good enough to set a player in a formation as an LB, or even as an OLB; the sim has to know that he is on the strong side of the field playing as an outer linebacker. As an extreme example, look at the on-side kicking formation; there are six players for the HT (Hands Team) role in the formation, but you won't find anyone just marked HT, there are marked HT1, HT2, etc. You have an HT depth chart where these players are pulled from, but if you really want a specific person in the HT3 slot you can go to the formation depth chart and put him there.
The simulation currently recognizes 55 different on-field roles, many of which are not actually in use yet, pus a couple of "depth chart parent roles) (ILB and OLB) that don't appear on field and yet aren't completely positions, and finally 14 positions, some of which have on-field roles with the same names (QB, C, TE, P and K I think are the only ones).
So, in summary:
Position: The skillset a player possesses in his EXE attribute.
Depth-Chart Parent Role: A role that exists for roles that have multiple specific roles to pull from. These will be the same as either a position or a specific role, with the exception of ILB, OLB, and HT. Depth chart Parent Roles have a Position as a parent.
Specific role: A designation that may include both the specific job of a player on the field and his location within a formation. This may happen to have the same name as its depth chart parent role or position.
The baseball sim sort of has the same thing going on, where there is only a position for Pitcher, and Relief Pitcher and Starting Pitcher are "depth chart roles", which are then split into "specific roles" (or "on-field roles") of 1st Starter, 2nd Starter, etc for SP, and Long Relief, Middle Relief, etc. for RP. If I had designed the sim, I might have only had a position for OF, with LF, RF and CF being "Roles". Some games do handle OF's in this fashion.
Hopefully this makes some sense. I should look at other games and see how they word things, i.e does Madden call the the left or weak-side outer linebacker an LOLB, an SOLB, just an OLB, or just an LB? Do they call LOLB a "position"? I have Madden '08 (I don't have a console, Madden '08 was the last PC version), I should boot it up and see if there is a better way to word/name things.
Chris
Rockpile523
I was going to go into a whole spiel about positional differences in the sim, but Chris already covered it.
April 04, 2014 at 04:04PM View BBCode
Madden goes pretty strait LOLB/ROLB, same with RDE/LDE, and LCB/RCB.I was going to go into a whole spiel about positional differences in the sim, but Chris already covered it.
Pages: 1