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starbolt
But Blanks & Johnson? Their seasons were great but almost laughable by any measure against Embree's.
Embree led the Majors in AVG, SLG and OPS, and led the NL in OBP. AS A CATCHER. Nevermind that he collected his 3rd consecutive Gold Glove (none of the others received one this year) and an All-Star Start (as did the other 4, so no disservice there)
Blanks, at least, exceeded Embree in Runs & RBI. Johnson did neither.
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Grats to MIL & CIN. Good luck in the postseason!
Can't reconcile the Awards system
September 07, 2013 at 09:37PM View BBCode
I don't have much complaint about Jerry Mailho & Joey Demaio over Embree for MVP (though I think a case can be made) after he led nearly wire-to-wire until the last couple weeks of the season when the voting suddenly skewed heavily to the contending teams.But Blanks & Johnson? Their seasons were great but almost laughable by any measure against Embree's.
Embree led the Majors in AVG, SLG and OPS, and led the NL in OBP. AS A CATCHER. Nevermind that he collected his 3rd consecutive Gold Glove (none of the others received one this year) and an All-Star Start (as did the other 4, so no disservice there)
Blanks, at least, exceeded Embree in Runs & RBI. Johnson did neither.
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Grats to MIL & CIN. Good luck in the postseason!
KuwentongPato
September 08, 2013 at 05:14AM View BBCode
Embree had a great season and certainly deserved to be in the top five in MVP voting. I'm certain that team momentum is a large factor in the overall voting and that could explain why my shortstop Frank Greene was leading the vote for part of the season as my team's RBI leader until my second baseman got hot at the same time as Mailho, so the numbers didn't stand out as much. Any player in the top five was deserving but I think ABE got it right, even with Blanks, but my personal vote might go to Demaio.
starbolt
Demaio is fine though I may do a 5-person headsup comparison (because I like to do them). Johnson placing 4th over Embree was what burned my ass and I see now that another day of voting has rectified that.
Bill James had a great essay on the qualifications for HOF and I think they stand up pretty well for MVP or Cy Young and among them are:
Q) Were you ever considered the best player in baseball?
Q) Were you ever considered the best player at your position?
Q) Were you ever considered the best player on your team?
This last is poignant when looking at Johnson vs his teammate Demaio. Their is no statistical measure where Johnson looks better, except BA. Extending that comparison to Embree, Johnson looks paler because that doesn't even apply.
Oddly, only Blanks & Embree are their team's #3 hitters... I was surprised to learn that Mailho batted 5th (I expected leadoff by the numbers). That is usually the barometer of who a team's perceived best hitter is but we can give Demaio a pass batting cleanup.
I think I like ABE's pick of Demaio best but I think Embree & Mailho are neck-and-neck for 2nd followed by Blanks and Greene (and then Johnson at 6th).
September 08, 2013 at 05:03PM View BBCode
I thought it was going to be Greene, frankly. Embree couldn't compete with his SB and they were neck and neck in AVG; though 35 - 19 (Catcher) isn't commanding. If Greene's BA hadn't faded at the end...Demaio is fine though I may do a 5-person headsup comparison (because I like to do them). Johnson placing 4th over Embree was what burned my ass and I see now that another day of voting has rectified that.
Bill James had a great essay on the qualifications for HOF and I think they stand up pretty well for MVP or Cy Young and among them are:
Q) Were you ever considered the best player in baseball?
Q) Were you ever considered the best player at your position?
Q) Were you ever considered the best player on your team?
This last is poignant when looking at Johnson vs his teammate Demaio. Their is no statistical measure where Johnson looks better, except BA. Extending that comparison to Embree, Johnson looks paler because that doesn't even apply.
Oddly, only Blanks & Embree are their team's #3 hitters... I was surprised to learn that Mailho batted 5th (I expected leadoff by the numbers). That is usually the barometer of who a team's perceived best hitter is but we can give Demaio a pass batting cleanup.
I think I like ABE's pick of Demaio best but I think Embree & Mailho are neck-and-neck for 2nd followed by Blanks and Greene (and then Johnson at 6th).
senorimhotep
September 08, 2013 at 09:41PM View BBCode
I also believe that your team winning the pennant factors into the final numbers, as, after all, the award is the League MVP and not the Team MVP, and as good as Embree was, he didn't get his team into the playoffs, or even to .500. Oh, and he finished 2nd in the NL in OBP not 1st.
starbolt
I stand corrected :)
September 08, 2013 at 10:30PM View BBCode
Originally posted by senorimhotep
Oh, and he finished 2nd in the NL in OBP not 1st.
I stand corrected :)
starbolt
The award is not "most valuable player on the winningest team". I remember when Cal Ripken won his over Danny Tartabull (and Frank Thomas?) with virtually identical numbers. Not that the only or best measure is statistical... as you point out, the player should make his team better; presumably winning more games.
That being the case, WAR (Wins Above Replacement) is probably a much better evaluation... would be nice if SymD supported that one.
I would argue that you could replace Johnson with pretty much any average outfielder and not lose much (not the case with Demaio or Embree) in the way of wins... CIN still ends up solidly in 2nd place.
September 08, 2013 at 11:23PM View BBCode
Shifting the topic to real baseball, though, that argument has always irked me.The award is not "most valuable player on the winningest team". I remember when Cal Ripken won his over Danny Tartabull (and Frank Thomas?) with virtually identical numbers. Not that the only or best measure is statistical... as you point out, the player should make his team better; presumably winning more games.
That being the case, WAR (Wins Above Replacement) is probably a much better evaluation... would be nice if SymD supported that one.
I would argue that you could replace Johnson with pretty much any average outfielder and not lose much (not the case with Demaio or Embree) in the way of wins... CIN still ends up solidly in 2nd place.
FishingCat
It is what it is.
September 14, 2013 at 01:38AM View BBCode
It's true that some of the league awards are a bit messed up. I've had a MVP that wasn't an all-star starter. And a Cy Young winner that didn't make the all-star team.It is what it is.
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