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Admin
Tyson
[Edited on 8-25-2010 by Admin]
New Mentoring System
August 24, 2010 at 04:58PM View BBCode
I'm going to be fooling around with the mentoring formula on the website for the next couple of hours. I'm thinking of creating a 2nd formula that leagues will be able to use that is more correlated with skill level.Tyson
[Edited on 8-25-2010 by Admin]
Admin
Tyson
August 24, 2010 at 04:59PM View BBCode
Note, this won't impact actual mentoring in the games - just what you see on the game site.Tyson
Admin
The goal is eliminate cases where the career waiver wire guy becomes a great mentor. Most players should stay within one +/- of where they are today.
Note I have left the player card to use the old formula so that you can compare the mentoring scores.
Here are some of the particulars.
- For calculating overall rating, I used something closer to the Abe Sort amateur draft calculation. Control will be weighted more heavily than Velocity, and Power more so than Contact, for instance.
- Batters will have the same mentoring score vs LHP and RHP.
- Leadership carries less weight in the mentoring formula.
I'm working on putting this into the game code.
This will be an option leagues can turn on or off, and will be turned off by default.
Tyson
August 25, 2010 at 04:44PM View BBCode
Ok, I've changed all 3 beta leagues to use a new mentoring system. This system will weigh leadership less than the other system, will use a weighted overall rating for the total rating part of the equation, and will have a higher minimum threshold for talent level to be a viable mentor.The goal is eliminate cases where the career waiver wire guy becomes a great mentor. Most players should stay within one +/- of where they are today.
Note I have left the player card to use the old formula so that you can compare the mentoring scores.
Here are some of the particulars.
- For calculating overall rating, I used something closer to the Abe Sort amateur draft calculation. Control will be weighted more heavily than Velocity, and Power more so than Contact, for instance.
- Batters will have the same mentoring score vs LHP and RHP.
- Leadership carries less weight in the mentoring formula.
I'm working on putting this into the game code.
This will be an option leagues can turn on or off, and will be turned off by default.
Tyson
Admin
Tyson
August 25, 2010 at 06:35PM View BBCode
For the moment, don't pay any attention to the mentoring scores on the Lineup & Rotation & Bullpen pages. I'm monkeying around with a new system for team mentoring score.Tyson
lvnwrth
Not sure what underlying goal lies behind the stated goal. If it's just change for the sake of change, to mix things up and keep things interesting (and by interesting, I mean different simply for the sake of variety), fine. But if it's in any way intended to reflect a reality outside of SD, I'm not sure it hits the mark.
In real life, the fact is, guys who are career waiver wire guys DO become great mentors - Whitey Herzog, Dick Williams, Chuck Tanner, Bobby Cox. In fact, in real life, there are probably more great "mentors" from the ranks of career waiver wire types, than there are among HOF caliber players.
Weighting control for pitching mentors makes sense...it reflects the guy who knows how to pitch, rather than simply throw hard. For hitting, the best batting coaches tend to be guys who knew how to make contact. There have been very few successful hitting coaches who were low contact, high power types.
So Jose Canseco would be a better hitting coach than say, Tony Phillips? (just using two examples who were teammates, for easier comparison)
I'm not objecting to any of this. I don't think many SD owners make roster decisions based on mentoring, except if they're in total rebuild mode. I'm just pointing out that it's a change that bears little relationship to real life.
[Edited on 8-26-2010 by lvnwrth]
August 26, 2010 at 01:09PM View BBCode
Originally posted by Admin
Ok, I've changed all 3 beta leagues to use a new mentoring system....
The goal is eliminate cases where the career waiver wire guy becomes a great mentor. Most players should stay within one +/- of where they are today.
Not sure what underlying goal lies behind the stated goal. If it's just change for the sake of change, to mix things up and keep things interesting (and by interesting, I mean different simply for the sake of variety), fine. But if it's in any way intended to reflect a reality outside of SD, I'm not sure it hits the mark.
In real life, the fact is, guys who are career waiver wire guys DO become great mentors - Whitey Herzog, Dick Williams, Chuck Tanner, Bobby Cox. In fact, in real life, there are probably more great "mentors" from the ranks of career waiver wire types, than there are among HOF caliber players.
For calculating overall rating, I used something closer to the Abe Sort amateur draft calculation. Control will be weighted more heavily than Velocity, and Power more so than Contact, for instance.
Weighting control for pitching mentors makes sense...it reflects the guy who knows how to pitch, rather than simply throw hard. For hitting, the best batting coaches tend to be guys who knew how to make contact. There have been very few successful hitting coaches who were low contact, high power types.
- Leadership carries less weight in the mentoring formula.
So Jose Canseco would be a better hitting coach than say, Tony Phillips? (just using two examples who were teammates, for easier comparison)
I'm not objecting to any of this. I don't think many SD owners make roster decisions based on mentoring, except if they're in total rebuild mode. I'm just pointing out that it's a change that bears little relationship to real life.
[Edited on 8-26-2010 by lvnwrth]
Admin
All leagues will use the old system unless they unanimously vote for the change.
Tyson
August 26, 2010 at 02:37PM View BBCode
My main goal is to remove the situation where a horrific player with 0 career playing time is an effective, or even an A+ mentor. You see these guys all the time on the total rebuild teams and this just isn't reality IMHO. A guy like Tony Phillips would still be a great mentor under this system and better than Jose Canseco. If he as an A+ mentor under the other system, he's probably an A+ or A mentor still. If Jose was a D mentor, he might be D+ now. For 95% of players, it won't make a huge difference. On the other hand, a guy like Kasey Olenberger might be an okay mentor under the new system, but he won't be an A+ mentor. Those are the type of guys I'm targeting.All leagues will use the old system unless they unanimously vote for the change.
Tyson
ballplayer3
August 27, 2010 at 04:36PM View BBCode
It's funny how you mention Canseco as a hitting coach, since I just read that he IS now a hitting coach, and player, for an Independant League team. I laughed when I read that he is actually considered a hitting coach.
redcped
August 28, 2010 at 04:07PM View BBCode
Mark McGwire is now a hitting coach. Let's see how that goes for a few seasons.
celamantia
To this I tend to say things like "Tommy Lasorda" :) Although I guess he did have a short stint in the bigs.
August 28, 2010 at 05:09PM View BBCode
Originally posted by Admin
My main goal is to remove the situation where a horrific player with 0 career playing time is an effective, or even an A+ mentor. You see these guys all the time on the total rebuild teams and this just isn't reality IMHO.
To this I tend to say things like "Tommy Lasorda" :) Although I guess he did have a short stint in the bigs.
Admin
Tyson
August 28, 2010 at 06:14PM View BBCode
He had 18 career at bats. In SimD, he probably would have had 1500 on a rebuilding team.Tyson
Admin
Tyson
August 28, 2010 at 06:14PM View BBCode
He had 18 career at bats. In SimD, he probably would have had 1500 on a rebuilding team.Tyson
tworoosters
Another odd example to me is [url=http://beta.simdynasty.com/player.jsp?player=nobody&mode=stats&id=62641]Tebbetts[/url], OS34, B+ overall, A+ leadership, a control heavy bundle and three straight years of success it seems odd to me that his mentor level is only B+.
I don't think there is an A+ mentor among SPs in the ASL currently, [url=http://beta.simdynasty.com/player.jsp?mode=player&playername=nobody&id=61209]Burdock[/url] is being used as a starter but he's an RP on the card and [url=http://beta.simdynasty.com/player.jsp?mode=player&playername=nobody&id=61104]York[/url] is the only other A+ mentor on a roster.
I'm thinking that you may have gone a bit further than necessary in decreasing these mentor levels.
Strange mentor Levels in ASL
February 22, 2011 at 08:14PM View BBCode
Not sure if this is tied to the new system but it seems odd to me that a guy like [url=http://beta.simdynasty.com/player.jsp?player=nobody&mode=stats&id=62253]House[/url] has a B- mentor level, he's OS32 B+ overall with an A+ leadership and has performed reasonably well over the past four seasons.Another odd example to me is [url=http://beta.simdynasty.com/player.jsp?player=nobody&mode=stats&id=62641]Tebbetts[/url], OS34, B+ overall, A+ leadership, a control heavy bundle and three straight years of success it seems odd to me that his mentor level is only B+.
I don't think there is an A+ mentor among SPs in the ASL currently, [url=http://beta.simdynasty.com/player.jsp?mode=player&playername=nobody&id=61209]Burdock[/url] is being used as a starter but he's an RP on the card and [url=http://beta.simdynasty.com/player.jsp?mode=player&playername=nobody&id=61104]York[/url] is the only other A+ mentor on a roster.
I'm thinking that you may have gone a bit further than necessary in decreasing these mentor levels.
greco4170
You see it all the time when a player is a homegrown talent as he gets older he is given a lot of respect by the younger players (lance berkman was a great teammate in houston). but when they move on as a hired gun they lose that respect by the young players (when berkman got to NY he was an outsider).
This would keep the guys off the waiver wire from being hired just for mentoring because the player wouldnt get the respect of other player.
All the players mentioned in this stream were all coaches which if you added a coaches mentoring then that would come in handy.
Mentor Question?
February 23, 2011 at 12:38AM View BBCode
Just something to be thrown out there how about a guy who is on the same team his whole career would build up his mentoring but when he moved on to another team he would lose that mentoring ability.You see it all the time when a player is a homegrown talent as he gets older he is given a lot of respect by the younger players (lance berkman was a great teammate in houston). but when they move on as a hired gun they lose that respect by the young players (when berkman got to NY he was an outsider).
This would keep the guys off the waiver wire from being hired just for mentoring because the player wouldnt get the respect of other player.
All the players mentioned in this stream were all coaches which if you added a coaches mentoring then that would come in handy.
lvnwrth
Just to keep it Dodgers, instead of Lasorda, how about Walter Alston? I guess maybe that 1 career AB keeps him from being a "career waiver wire" guy. Still haven't figured out what this does for Leo Mazzone.
February 24, 2011 at 02:02AM View BBCode
Originally posted by celamantia
Originally posted by Admin
My main goal is to remove the situation where a horrific player with 0 career playing time is an effective, or even an A+ mentor. You see these guys all the time on the total rebuild teams and this just isn't reality IMHO.
To this I tend to say things like "Tommy Lasorda" :) Although I guess he did have a short stint in the bigs.
Just to keep it Dodgers, instead of Lasorda, how about Walter Alston? I guess maybe that 1 career AB keeps him from being a "career waiver wire" guy. Still haven't figured out what this does for Leo Mazzone.
lvnwrth
If you're referring to Lasorda, he had 13 career AB, 18 games, 40-some IP.
Nonetheless, your justification is flawed.
We don't have coaches to develop our young players; we have mentors. If, in real life, you did away with coaches at the ML level, and required every coach be a player-coach active on the 25 man roster, I'm guessing that you would find a lot of guys like Dick Williams, Whitey Herzog, Tommy Lasorda, Sparky Anderson, etc, enjoying careers of some length.
If you want to really fix the problem, add a manager and coaching staff to our rosters. Then those scrub players won't be eating AB on rebuilding teams. As soon as they turn 28 and show a strong mentor grade, they'll retire and become coaches.
February 24, 2011 at 02:09AM View BBCode
Originally posted by Admin
He had 18 career at bats. In SimD, he probably would have had 1500 on a rebuilding team.
Tyson
If you're referring to Lasorda, he had 13 career AB, 18 games, 40-some IP.
Nonetheless, your justification is flawed.
We don't have coaches to develop our young players; we have mentors. If, in real life, you did away with coaches at the ML level, and required every coach be a player-coach active on the 25 man roster, I'm guessing that you would find a lot of guys like Dick Williams, Whitey Herzog, Tommy Lasorda, Sparky Anderson, etc, enjoying careers of some length.
If you want to really fix the problem, add a manager and coaching staff to our rosters. Then those scrub players won't be eating AB on rebuilding teams. As soon as they turn 28 and show a strong mentor grade, they'll retire and become coaches.
greco4170
http://simdynasty.ideascale.com/a/dtd/Each-team-would-hire-a-Manager--Batting-Coach--Pitching-Coach.-/29144-3581
Each coach would be given an amount of Mentoring that would go up and down as the teams win totals do and with the amount of years that a coach is used in different roles.
A young coach would go up until he reaches 50 years old and then would go down after he reaches 60 and could retire anytime after 65.
A manager that wins a title (division or world) would get a bump the next year and for each winning season his mentoring would go up it would go down with losing seasons and would get a bigger drop with a last place finish and even more with a 100 lose season.
As guys retire they could go into coaching so a player that is drafted he would play his career and then when he retires a team can offer him a coaching position to be a ?company man?.
This would give owners a chance to hire and fire coaches that can help each part of the team.
A manager would have an overall affect on the team?s ability across the board.
Give coaches a strong point and a weak point like a hitting coach that is good at helping power hitting but the players will improve slower in contact.
Give pitching coaches that they are strong at adding endurance, velocity or control.
Each team would hire a Manager, Batting Coach, Pitching Coach.
February 24, 2011 at 11:07PM View BBCode
This is an idea that i put out there a month ago.http://simdynasty.ideascale.com/a/dtd/Each-team-would-hire-a-Manager--Batting-Coach--Pitching-Coach.-/29144-3581
Each coach would be given an amount of Mentoring that would go up and down as the teams win totals do and with the amount of years that a coach is used in different roles.
A young coach would go up until he reaches 50 years old and then would go down after he reaches 60 and could retire anytime after 65.
A manager that wins a title (division or world) would get a bump the next year and for each winning season his mentoring would go up it would go down with losing seasons and would get a bigger drop with a last place finish and even more with a 100 lose season.
As guys retire they could go into coaching so a player that is drafted he would play his career and then when he retires a team can offer him a coaching position to be a ?company man?.
This would give owners a chance to hire and fire coaches that can help each part of the team.
A manager would have an overall affect on the team?s ability across the board.
Give coaches a strong point and a weak point like a hitting coach that is good at helping power hitting but the players will improve slower in contact.
Give pitching coaches that they are strong at adding endurance, velocity or control.
Admin
The place for suggestions is Suggest Enhancements - beta is for testing the implementation of those enhancements.
Thanks!
Tyson
February 24, 2011 at 11:50PM View BBCode
tworoosters - I will take a look at the calculations and see if something doesn't look right.The place for suggestions is Suggest Enhancements - beta is for testing the implementation of those enhancements.
Thanks!
Tyson
Admin
Since there isn't as strong a tie between leadership and mentoring, what is happening is that it is much tougher to get a really good mentoring score because you don't have a high leadership score proping players up.
For pitchers, I'm going to tweak the overall rating formula for this system, and also give a small bump across the board. This should create a few more good mentors, and should even the overall mentoring score of the entire league with where it was before.
Tyson
[Edited on 3-8-2011 by Admin]
March 08, 2011 at 06:46PM View BBCode
I've spent some time looking at this the last 2 days. I'm going to make some adjustments based on what I found.Since there isn't as strong a tie between leadership and mentoring, what is happening is that it is much tougher to get a really good mentoring score because you don't have a high leadership score proping players up.
For pitchers, I'm going to tweak the overall rating formula for this system, and also give a small bump across the board. This should create a few more good mentors, and should even the overall mentoring score of the entire league with where it was before.
Tyson
[Edited on 3-8-2011 by Admin]
Admin
I made another tweak for system 2. The system 1 formula lumps guys together in 2 year groups (34 and 35 year olds are treated the same, for instance). I've created another level of delineation which should create a few more good mentors.
Tyson
March 08, 2011 at 06:56PM View BBCode
These changes have been moved in. Let's see how things go. I'm going to hold off moving these to the live site until May.I made another tweak for system 2. The system 1 formula lumps guys together in 2 year groups (34 and 35 year olds are treated the same, for instance). I've created another level of delineation which should create a few more good mentors.
Tyson
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