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| Poll: Gil Hodges: Hall of Fame Stuff? | |
|---|---|
| Yes | 2 |
| No | 3 |
BravesLuver
HOF Stuff?
Gil Hodges: Hall of Fame Stuff?
September 02, 2003 at 12:15AM View BBCode
Don't be lazy, here are his stats: http://www.baseball-reference.com/h/hodgegi01.shtmlHOF Stuff?
farfetched
I was going to start a similar debate about Don Mattingly.
September 02, 2003 at 01:07AM View BBCode
Definitely HoF material, seeing as 370 HR's and 1100 R's and RBI's for his career is nothing to sneeze at. Also, he was part of the greatest NL team of the 1950s.I was going to start a similar debate about Don Mattingly.
happy
September 02, 2003 at 01:15AM View BBCode
what was gil hodges known for? less than 2000 hits...only 3something homers, it doesnt seem like hes that great of a hitter. I didnt look at position, but if he played 2nd, 3rd, Short, or Catcher, then yes, if first base then no, and if outfield, then he better be REALLY good a defense. Dont try comparing him to some other HOFers, because in the mid to late 60s a bunch of people made the Hall that shouldnt have.
FuriousGiorge
September 02, 2003 at 02:11AM View BBCode
Absolutely not, same for Mattingly. Gil Hodges played the least demanding defensive position, in a big-time offensive era, and managed .273/.359/.487. Decent numbers, but good enough to only put him in the top-10 OPS+ 4 times. The only positive category he ever led his league in was games played. He never finished higher than 7th in the MVP ballot. He hit a pedestrian .267/.351/.412 in the World Series (which is all the postseason he got obviously.) The argument for him usually includes his WS win as the manager of the 1969 Mets, but he never managed to win more than 83 games in any other season as a manager. (In almost 9 full seasons as a manager). Gil Hodges was a good player, but he ain't a Hall of Famer.
Meathead
September 02, 2003 at 02:57AM View BBCode
For a hitter with only above average career numbers like Hodges, you need to have had a shorter career in which you dominated or have been a great defensive player. Hodges doesn't qualify in either case. He was a very good player and an important part of a great team. He is not a Hall of Famer.
ME
Hall of the Very Good
September 02, 2003 at 04:39AM View BBCode
the Hall of Fame has admitted a bunch of guys who don't really deserve to be there, Orlando Cepeda and Phil rizzuto come to mind. The best case would be there would be a hall of fame for teh great players and a hall of the very good for all the borderline-HoF players, Andre Dawson, Ryne Sandburg, Lee Smith, Hodges, etc. would get in to this with most of the existing hall of famers, and this would err on the side of letting marginal players in.there would be a true hall of fame for the great players, Ruth, Williams, Johnson, Cobb, etc., that would be very selected and err on the side of not letting people in.
Duff77
Baseball-Reference is nice because at the bottom of a player's page it lists similar players. I checked--none of the "similar players" are in the hall of fame.
I'd say his numbers fall short. Getting into the hall should be hard. You can't just be a good player, or a great player for part of your career. And the fact that there are some guys in the hall that shouldn't be does not--to me--change that.
And what the hell is Phil Rizzuto doing in the hall of fame? That's a travesty.
September 02, 2003 at 04:55AM View BBCode
One thought:Baseball-Reference is nice because at the bottom of a player's page it lists similar players. I checked--none of the "similar players" are in the hall of fame.
I'd say his numbers fall short. Getting into the hall should be hard. You can't just be a good player, or a great player for part of your career. And the fact that there are some guys in the hall that shouldn't be does not--to me--change that.
And what the hell is Phil Rizzuto doing in the hall of fame? That's a travesty.
BravesLuver
September 02, 2003 at 06:57PM View BBCode
There certainy are bad players in the Hall, like Rizzuto. Hodges is certainly borderline stuff.
BravesLuver
September 02, 2003 at 06:57PM View BBCode
There certainy are bad players in the Hall, like Rizzuto. Hodges is certainly borderline stuff.
happy
September 02, 2003 at 08:56PM View BBCode
actually shorter careers are a disadvantage in the HOF. HOFers are looking for players who were good (not great) for a really long time. That is why the guy who hit 61 homers that i cant remember the name of isnt in the Hall
BravesLuver
Roger maris :cool:
September 03, 2003 at 02:00AM View BBCode
Happy, are you really a baseball fan?Roger maris :cool:
Duff77
Generally the only exception to that is for players who were SO dominant over a short period of time that they have to go. Sandy Koufax is one. Bob Gibson is another (only 251 wins).
I think you have to catch the national eye, too. If Ken Griffey Jr. retired now, he'd be stuck on 481 HRs, and might not go to the hall. This despite having been the most dominating player in baseball from 1993 to 2000 (1995 being the notable exception). Same for Rafael Palmerio if he'd quit last year with 490 HRs. He's got 522 now, and even with the Viagra spots, nobody knows who he is.
So either you've got to have the magic numbers or be outrageously popular. Gil Hodges apparently had neither.
September 03, 2003 at 04:12AM View BBCode
Yeah how can you forget that guy's name was Roger Maris? Oh well. But it's true, you can't just be great for one year or even a few years. You have to be consistently good for a very long time. The unwritten rules about 500 HRs, 3,000 hits, and 300 wins prove that. There are some guys with 3,000 hits--like Cal Ripken Jr., who were never tremendous hitters. Even without the streak, Rip would go to the hall on the hits alone. He wasn't great, but he was good for a very long time.Generally the only exception to that is for players who were SO dominant over a short period of time that they have to go. Sandy Koufax is one. Bob Gibson is another (only 251 wins).
I think you have to catch the national eye, too. If Ken Griffey Jr. retired now, he'd be stuck on 481 HRs, and might not go to the hall. This despite having been the most dominating player in baseball from 1993 to 2000 (1995 being the notable exception). Same for Rafael Palmerio if he'd quit last year with 490 HRs. He's got 522 now, and even with the Viagra spots, nobody knows who he is.
So either you've got to have the magic numbers or be outrageously popular. Gil Hodges apparently had neither.
ME
September 04, 2003 at 12:19AM View BBCode
Hack Wilson for hitters was only a top-notch player for a few years, and had one incredible season, but otherwise wasnt that good, im not sure why he is in the hall and merris isn't.
BravesLuver
September 04, 2003 at 12:23AM View BBCode
Wilson like Rizzuto got in and wasn't supposed to. Maris, well, he wasn't all that great except in 1961. I don't think Maris does belong in the hall.
ME
[url]http://www.baseball-reference.com/m/marisro01.shtml[/url]
here are hack wilson's
[url]http://www.baseball-reference.com/w/wilsoha01.shtml[/url]
September 04, 2003 at 12:26AM View BBCode
i butchered Maris's name, but here is his stats:[url]http://www.baseball-reference.com/m/marisro01.shtml[/url]
here are hack wilson's
[url]http://www.baseball-reference.com/w/wilsoha01.shtml[/url]
BravesLuver
and what, a .263 BA? Not good either.
September 04, 2003 at 12:32AM View BBCode
Other than the 1-hit wonder breakthough year, he never hit 40 homers, almost a must for any HOFer not named Ricky Henderson. and his high RBI's other than that year was what, 113. Certainly not Hall numbers.and what, a .263 BA? Not good either.
BravesLuver
Woh, I thought I should take your word on Hack, but he ain't half bad.
244 hrs in 12 season isn't too bad, and he had like 190 RBIs one season. Amazing.
September 04, 2003 at 12:36AM View BBCode
*pauses*Woh, I thought I should take your word on Hack, but he ain't half bad.
244 hrs in 12 season isn't too bad, and he had like 190 RBIs one season. Amazing.
FuriousGiorge
If someone is looking for really miserable HOF selections, check out Lloyd Waner, Roger Bresnahan and George Kelly.
Oh, and that 40 homer threshold is pretty silly. Ty Cobb, George Brett, Honus Wagner, Stan Musial(!), the list of worthy Hall of Famers without 40 homers is quite long.
September 04, 2003 at 01:15AM View BBCode
Hack Wilson was a good player, and I'm not sure the Maris comp was accurate. Hack Wilson was a GREAT player for 5 full seasons, but he was only really a regular for those 5 plus one more season. Most people tend to think that Hall of Famers should have more substantial, longer careers, and I'm one of them. Incidentally, Hack Wilson is mostly remembered for two things: 191 RBI, and his enormous weakness for the bottle.If someone is looking for really miserable HOF selections, check out Lloyd Waner, Roger Bresnahan and George Kelly.
Oh, and that 40 homer threshold is pretty silly. Ty Cobb, George Brett, Honus Wagner, Stan Musial(!), the list of worthy Hall of Famers without 40 homers is quite long.
Duff77
Now you can argue about Hack Wilson. I think that's a comprobale situation. This guy had a few very good and one great season. You take out the 56 HRs and 191 RBI and there's no way he goes. Ultimately, it probably just comes down to Wilson having more star power than Maris. Star power and hero status are pretty well related.
But you can't bust on Hack Wilson. He is the ONLY player I've ever heard of who was born in Ellwood City PA, which is where my father grew up and my grandmother still lives. For years I've been meaning to write the mayor a letter of protest. How can you have a HOF player born in your piss-ant little town and not have a sign up somewhere?
September 04, 2003 at 09:37AM View BBCode
The HOF isn't just about stats. It's about honoring the true heroes of the game. Like it or not, that's why guys like Phil Rizzuto and Bill Mazeroski make it. They get in because they mean something to the fans and to the game. Jackie Robinson didn't have HOF numbers either. So what? He's a hero. Anybody who qualifies as a hero ends up going.Now you can argue about Hack Wilson. I think that's a comprobale situation. This guy had a few very good and one great season. You take out the 56 HRs and 191 RBI and there's no way he goes. Ultimately, it probably just comes down to Wilson having more star power than Maris. Star power and hero status are pretty well related.
But you can't bust on Hack Wilson. He is the ONLY player I've ever heard of who was born in Ellwood City PA, which is where my father grew up and my grandmother still lives. For years I've been meaning to write the mayor a letter of protest. How can you have a HOF player born in your piss-ant little town and not have a sign up somewhere?
farfetched
Also, no one's ever going to come close to hitting 75+ RBI in 20 straight seasons. A true model of consistency he was.
September 04, 2003 at 02:06PM View BBCode
Fun fact #553. EDDIE MURRAY, of all the Hall-of-Famers in history, never topped 33 homeruns in any season he played.Also, no one's ever going to come close to hitting 75+ RBI in 20 straight seasons. A true model of consistency he was.
happy
September 04, 2003 at 05:31PM View BBCode
"king" kelly was one of the greatest players of his time, and was also a great manager, he definatly belongs. He forced the creation of many of the rules of today, like when he was coaching, when a pop fly came in his direction, he called that he was coming in as catcher, and then caught the ball, and then after that, the dead ball subs rule was created. Also, he would get his guy to bunt like 30 pitches off to tire out good pitchers, which created the strike out on 2nd strike fouls on bunts.
FuriousGiorge
September 04, 2003 at 05:40PM View BBCode
The reason I don't think the Maris/Wilson comp is a good one is that while Wilson was a spectacular player for 5 years, Maris was only a very good one for 2. He didn't really deserve either of his MVP awards, especially the one in 1961 which should have gone to Mantle or Norm Cash. 1960's should really have gone to Mantle as well. Wilson has a much better case based on how good he was for a longer period, in fact Hack Wilson might almost be compared to Sandy Koufax. Koufax clearly dominated his league more than Wilson did, and as a pitcher he gets more credit for that fact. But "5 dominant years, a handful of pretty good ones, some mediocre ones and a early exit from the game," could describe either player.
happy
September 04, 2003 at 07:14PM View BBCode
yeah. Maris actually was a good player until hitting 61, and because he hated the press, because they scared him, he started losing his hair, and got a bunch of wrinkles, and started sucking because of all the publicityPages: 1