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ironhorse2ko
For this, I'm just going to throw out some names and see what happens.
Lefty Grove: He got 300 wins, sure. However had he entered the league say 1920 Grove (born 1900) what would his final numbers look like? Maybe another ERA title or three.
Dwight Gooden: 100 wins before 25, triple crown at 20 and drug & injuries. Put up better numbers than Clemens in the 80's. Once the fastball went (arm trouble), he still thought he could still dominate. Had he like Grove became more of a finese artist and relied more on off-speed pitches, could he had stayed around longer and put up more solid numbers than what he has?
Strawberry: Like Gooden was better than most of his comptemparies when he emerged on the scene. At the end of the 93 season he had 285 homers, leading the pack. Same with Gooden, had he stayed from the blow and showed more discipline, would we be talking about him instead of Bonds?
Griffey Jr: Once on the fast track, broke down dramically after 2000. At 560 plus homers, he was projected to break Aaron's record. Had he took better care of himself in his 20'S, what could have been?
Mantle: Injuries took him down for sure, but still managed to blast 536 homers. Had he cut back on the drinking, he would probably still be living with a good liver. Maybe even managed to crank out another 100 homers, maybe.
Ruth: Like Mantle loved the nightlife. Had he cut back maybe even a little, could he have managed to hit .400 in 1923 or even hit more homers. A better question would be, what would his record look like had he stayed a pitcher?
What could have been?
October 24, 2006 at 08:46PM View BBCode
[color=Black]In sports, we see those players that come in and blow everybody away in their wake. Then seemingly, they fall off. Had they stayed on long enough what would their records look like?[/color]For this, I'm just going to throw out some names and see what happens.
Lefty Grove: He got 300 wins, sure. However had he entered the league say 1920 Grove (born 1900) what would his final numbers look like? Maybe another ERA title or three.
Dwight Gooden: 100 wins before 25, triple crown at 20 and drug & injuries. Put up better numbers than Clemens in the 80's. Once the fastball went (arm trouble), he still thought he could still dominate. Had he like Grove became more of a finese artist and relied more on off-speed pitches, could he had stayed around longer and put up more solid numbers than what he has?
Strawberry: Like Gooden was better than most of his comptemparies when he emerged on the scene. At the end of the 93 season he had 285 homers, leading the pack. Same with Gooden, had he stayed from the blow and showed more discipline, would we be talking about him instead of Bonds?
Griffey Jr: Once on the fast track, broke down dramically after 2000. At 560 plus homers, he was projected to break Aaron's record. Had he took better care of himself in his 20'S, what could have been?
Mantle: Injuries took him down for sure, but still managed to blast 536 homers. Had he cut back on the drinking, he would probably still be living with a good liver. Maybe even managed to crank out another 100 homers, maybe.
Ruth: Like Mantle loved the nightlife. Had he cut back maybe even a little, could he have managed to hit .400 in 1923 or even hit more homers. A better question would be, what would his record look like had he stayed a pitcher?
rkinslow19
Not sure if the conversation is limited to baseball, but if Barry Sanders hadn't have walked away from the game...
October 25, 2006 at 01:00AM View BBCode
I'd like to throw Koufax into the ring as well.Not sure if the conversation is limited to baseball, but if Barry Sanders hadn't have walked away from the game...
Isaiah4110
Mike.......... Tyson.
October 25, 2006 at 06:11AM View BBCode
Uh oh. You guys ready for this one?Mike.......... Tyson.
ironhorse2ko
Good points raised there with Koufax and Sanders. Had Koufax learned control earlier like right from the beginning (1955) and not developed artritis in his pitching elbow, no doubt he would have had another 100 or more wins, more Cy Youngs (maybe 3 more) and played out his career.
Sanders at the time of his retirement was the leading rusher, ahead of Smith and was truly on pace to break Paytons record. Had he continued, who knows what those stats might look like. Personally, I think it was all those years playing on a non-contender like the Lions that took his heart out of it. Had he forced a trade probably to like Minnesota even, I'm sure he would have stuck around a little more.
October 26, 2006 at 02:18AM View BBCode
Originally posted by rkinslow19[color=Black][/color]
I'd like to throw Koufax into the ring as well.
Not sure if the conversation is limited to baseball, but if Barry Sanders hadn't have walked away from the game...
Good points raised there with Koufax and Sanders. Had Koufax learned control earlier like right from the beginning (1955) and not developed artritis in his pitching elbow, no doubt he would have had another 100 or more wins, more Cy Youngs (maybe 3 more) and played out his career.
Sanders at the time of his retirement was the leading rusher, ahead of Smith and was truly on pace to break Paytons record. Had he continued, who knows what those stats might look like. Personally, I think it was all those years playing on a non-contender like the Lions that took his heart out of it. Had he forced a trade probably to like Minnesota even, I'm sure he would have stuck around a little more.
ironhorse2ko
Where to start. First and foremost, after Dimato died, he was lost. Then came Givens and Don King; two more distractions that did the man no good, and he realized this- abeit late.
Had he had someone step in to help him truly focus on his craft and without those earlier "distractions", ponder these stats: Not entirely impossible given his Power, ability, skill, and physical conditioning, Tyson could have broken Marchanos record for consective KO's; remember, many of his early wins were 30 second first round knockouts.
Here's another one, again not entirely impossible : Tyson could have broken Joe Louis record for consective years as champ. Sure opponents got bigger and stronger; however Tyson still had the pcyscological edge and maintained his psyche. And if not ten years, Tyson could have easily retained his title starting from 86 and held it until 1992, that's a good seven.
Here's the downside; his problems with women. They got in the way, and costed him big ( how would you deal with them as hi manager?). Unfortunately, we will never know if Tyson would have been the greatest ever, although he had made a strong case earlier on, and he himself is fully aware of his place in boxing history.
October 26, 2006 at 02:51AM View BBCode
Originally posted by Isaiah4110[color=Black][/color]
Uh oh. You guys ready for this one?
Mike.......... Tyson.
Where to start. First and foremost, after Dimato died, he was lost. Then came Givens and Don King; two more distractions that did the man no good, and he realized this- abeit late.
Had he had someone step in to help him truly focus on his craft and without those earlier "distractions", ponder these stats: Not entirely impossible given his Power, ability, skill, and physical conditioning, Tyson could have broken Marchanos record for consective KO's; remember, many of his early wins were 30 second first round knockouts.
Here's another one, again not entirely impossible : Tyson could have broken Joe Louis record for consective years as champ. Sure opponents got bigger and stronger; however Tyson still had the pcyscological edge and maintained his psyche. And if not ten years, Tyson could have easily retained his title starting from 86 and held it until 1992, that's a good seven.
Here's the downside; his problems with women. They got in the way, and costed him big ( how would you deal with them as hi manager?). Unfortunately, we will never know if Tyson would have been the greatest ever, although he had made a strong case earlier on, and he himself is fully aware of his place in boxing history.
scaffdog
He could easily have had 20k yards had he stuck around.
October 26, 2006 at 05:03PM View BBCode
Originally posted by ironhorse2ko
Originally posted by rkinslow19[color=Black][/color]
I'd like to throw Koufax into the ring as well.
Not sure if the conversation is limited to baseball, but if Barry Sanders hadn't have walked away from the game...
Good points raised there with Koufax and Sanders. Had Koufax learned control earlier like right from the beginning (1955) and not developed artritis in his pitching elbow, no doubt he would have had another 100 or more wins, more Cy Youngs (maybe 3 more) and played out his career.
Sanders at the time of his retirement was the leading rusher, ahead of Smith and was truly on pace to break Paytons record. Had he continued, who knows what those stats might look like. Personally, I think it was all those years playing on a non-contender like the Lions that took his heart out of it. Had he forced a trade probably to like Minnesota even, I'm sure he would have stuck around a little more.
He could easily have had 20k yards had he stuck around.
lvnwrth
Williams missed all of 1943-45 for WWII; then missed all but 43 games in 1951-52 for the Korean War. It doesn't take any liberal treatment of the numbers at all to project Williams to 2400 runs scored, 3400 hits, 670 doubles, 670 HR, 2350 RBI, 2700 BB. Those would have ranked him 1st, 3rd, 3rd, 2nd, 1st, and 1st all-time, at the time he retired. He would still be the all-time leader in runs scored, RBI, and walks.
Spahn missed all but a month of the 1942 season, after winning a roster spot in spring training. Then he missed all of 1943-45, and the first part of the 1946 season...which was then used getting back into pitching shape. No rehab assignments then. Spahn worked his way back in the major leagues.
(Unlike some players who stayed in shape playing for post teams (which Spahn did when he was at Camp Gruber, OK, but not for the whole war), Spahn deployed to the ETO, earned a battlefield commission, and was awarded a Bronze Star for valor during the Battle of the Bulge.)
As with Williams, it's no stretch at all to say that in the four seasons he missed he lost at least 50 wins. That's conservative, and it puts him at 413 career wins. If he lost 55 wins in those 4 seasons, that would put him at 418 wins and make him the winningest pitcher in history not named Cy Young.
October 26, 2006 at 05:36PM View BBCode
My two favorites in the "what if" category are Ted Williams and Warren Spahn.Williams missed all of 1943-45 for WWII; then missed all but 43 games in 1951-52 for the Korean War. It doesn't take any liberal treatment of the numbers at all to project Williams to 2400 runs scored, 3400 hits, 670 doubles, 670 HR, 2350 RBI, 2700 BB. Those would have ranked him 1st, 3rd, 3rd, 2nd, 1st, and 1st all-time, at the time he retired. He would still be the all-time leader in runs scored, RBI, and walks.
Spahn missed all but a month of the 1942 season, after winning a roster spot in spring training. Then he missed all of 1943-45, and the first part of the 1946 season...which was then used getting back into pitching shape. No rehab assignments then. Spahn worked his way back in the major leagues.
(Unlike some players who stayed in shape playing for post teams (which Spahn did when he was at Camp Gruber, OK, but not for the whole war), Spahn deployed to the ETO, earned a battlefield commission, and was awarded a Bronze Star for valor during the Battle of the Bulge.)
As with Williams, it's no stretch at all to say that in the four seasons he missed he lost at least 50 wins. That's conservative, and it puts him at 413 career wins. If he lost 55 wins in those 4 seasons, that would put him at 418 wins and make him the winningest pitcher in history not named Cy Young.
rkinslow19
At least. Time to create him in Madden!
October 26, 2006 at 09:27PM View BBCode
Originally posted by scaffdog
He could easily have had 20k yards had he stuck around.
At least. Time to create him in Madden!
ironhorse2ko
Here's another one, Mays. Historians claimed that he would have been the one to break Ruth's record had he not went to Korea. Maybe. Here's another guy, McClain. He followed up his 30 win season with 24 wins and another Cy Young. But his problems caught up with him.
In regards to Sphan, I've always thought that he could have had more wins than Johnson if not for WWII. And I have one more .... Sam Langford, Jack Johnson's rival.
Long considered by many historians to be in fact better than Johnson, Langford never got his opportunity because he was black, and because Johnson refused to put his title up against him. Johnson admitted that the black fighters always gave him challenge, and he was probably afraid of losing his title. He won 168 bouts; 117 by KO's. Langford probably could have won the title from Johnson
October 27, 2006 at 01:34AM View BBCode
Originally posted by lvnwrth[color=Black][/color]
My two favorites in the "what if" category are Ted Williams and Warren Spahn.
Williams missed all of 1943-45 for WWII; then missed all but 43 games in 1951-52 for the Korean War. It doesn't take any liberal treatment of the numbers at all to project Williams to 2400 runs scored, 3400 hits, 670 doubles, 670 HR, 2350 RBI, 2700 BB. Those would have ranked him 1st, 3rd, 3rd, 2nd, 1st, and 1st all-time, at the time he retired. He would still be the all-time leader in runs scored, RBI, and walks.
Spahn missed all but a month of the 1942 season, after winning a roster spot in spring training. Then he missed all of 1943-45, and the first part of the 1946 season...which was then used getting back into pitching shape. No rehab assignments then. Spahn worked his way back in the major leagues.
(Unlike some players who stayed in shape playing for post teams (which Spahn did when he was at Camp Gruber, OK, but not for the whole war), Spahn deployed to the ETO, earned a battlefield commission, and was awarded a Bronze Star for valor during the Battle of the Bulge.)
As with Williams, it's no stretch at all to say that in the four seasons he missed he lost at least 50 wins. That's conservative, and it puts him at 413 career wins. If he lost 55 wins in those 4 seasons, that would put him at 418 wins and make him the winningest pitcher in history not named Cy Young.
Here's another one, Mays. Historians claimed that he would have been the one to break Ruth's record had he not went to Korea. Maybe. Here's another guy, McClain. He followed up his 30 win season with 24 wins and another Cy Young. But his problems caught up with him.
In regards to Sphan, I've always thought that he could have had more wins than Johnson if not for WWII. And I have one more .... Sam Langford, Jack Johnson's rival.
Long considered by many historians to be in fact better than Johnson, Langford never got his opportunity because he was black, and because Johnson refused to put his title up against him. Johnson admitted that the black fighters always gave him challenge, and he was probably afraid of losing his title. He won 168 bouts; 117 by KO's. Langford probably could have won the title from Johnson
Admin
Thanks!
- Bleedred
October 27, 2006 at 05:39PM View BBCode
Please keep the [url=http://www.simdynasty.com/oldforum-viewthread.jsp?tid=117641]OT[/url] to OT.Thanks!
- Bleedred
lvnwrth
October 27, 2006 at 10:25PM View BBCode
The board we're on here is Sports Talk. Is what we're doing not Sports Talk? If not, perhaps we need some examples of what qualifies as Sports Talk. :puzzled::puzzled:
jetpac
October 28, 2006 at 08:07PM View BBCode
Well, I'd say the "say no to crack" comment was... not really about sports.Pages: 1