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jzyehoshua
If SimDynasty was more realistic about starting pitchers being able to go into the 8th and 9th innings without suddenly combusting, maybe there wouldn't be so much of a load on the relievers.
June 14, 2006 at 05:16PM View BBCode
It is sounding like a lot of it is starting pitchers not being able to go deep into games without getting shelled. I have my starter settings so they get taken out the instant they get tired because I know if I keep them in they get shelled like crazy in the late innings.If SimDynasty was more realistic about starting pitchers being able to go into the 8th and 9th innings without suddenly combusting, maybe there wouldn't be so much of a load on the relievers.
CardShark
http://209.51.167.204/boxscore.jsp?boxscoreid=5301667&cityid=9
And I'm not complaining, cause I produce innings like this too - What goes around comes around. I would just prefer that nobody has innings like this, cause it's very very unrealistic.
June 14, 2006 at 08:01PM View BBCode
The point is simple: We've proven that although injuries may break down a pitcher that pitches a lot of games (although, there's minimal proof of that), his performance doesn't suffer. So regardless of wear and tear later on, all the guys that are in the single season leaders did not have bad years. In fact, they had some of their best years. They did not combust because they pitched 2 out of 3 games. There's viable proof by Tyson that late inning explosions do occur because of stamia. Something has to done. Either make the endurance penalty not as harsh or allow more pitchers on the staff so innings like this one don't happen again which just happened to me today. Keep in mind, I have 2 As, 6 A-s & 2 B+s on my staff (so I don't have any really bad pitchers). Also, my team ERA was under 3.10 at the time. I challenge anybody to find an MLB team that had a 10th inning like this - let alone a team that was leading the league in pitching at the time.http://209.51.167.204/boxscore.jsp?boxscoreid=5301667&cityid=9
And I'm not complaining, cause I produce innings like this too - What goes around comes around. I would just prefer that nobody has innings like this, cause it's very very unrealistic.
cwballer25
From my experience, I've had a ton of luck getting pitchers deep. I've had a lot of success and a lot of consecutive WS titles with SP my main strength and maybe 2 very good RP, I can get by with 2 or 3 mediocre RP. I think the big problem is that people just don't develop their SP well enough. I could care less if my RP gets 20 or fewer IC's, as long as my SP are around 60. For a few seasons it sucked and I bombed, but it's paying off now with monster SP who can pitch 260+ innings with a 2.50 or lower ERA...obviously this is league and talent level dependent. Also, I'd turn an RP with C endurance into an SP any day. Then in the playoffs I just take my 5th starter, who is still better than all but one or 2 RP, and stick him in a bullpen spot since my 5th SP never gets used in the playoffs...
Just my thoughts. The game isn't perfect but there are many different strategies and not all show the same results...SP can go deep effectively if you do it right and you can win like that.
Chris
June 15, 2006 at 01:01PM View BBCode
"If SimDynasty was more realistic about starting pitchers being able to go into the 8th and 9th innings without suddenly combusting, maybe there wouldn't be so much of a load on the relievers."From my experience, I've had a ton of luck getting pitchers deep. I've had a lot of success and a lot of consecutive WS titles with SP my main strength and maybe 2 very good RP, I can get by with 2 or 3 mediocre RP. I think the big problem is that people just don't develop their SP well enough. I could care less if my RP gets 20 or fewer IC's, as long as my SP are around 60. For a few seasons it sucked and I bombed, but it's paying off now with monster SP who can pitch 260+ innings with a 2.50 or lower ERA...obviously this is league and talent level dependent. Also, I'd turn an RP with C endurance into an SP any day. Then in the playoffs I just take my 5th starter, who is still better than all but one or 2 RP, and stick him in a bullpen spot since my 5th SP never gets used in the playoffs...
Just my thoughts. The game isn't perfect but there are many different strategies and not all show the same results...SP can go deep effectively if you do it right and you can win like that.
Chris
lvnwrth
June 15, 2006 at 03:28PM View BBCode
Also helps if you have four #1 overall picks in your starting rotation, huh? ;)
tm4559
it do lvnwrth. you must be talking about the braves. actually its only three, guidry, macey and glaus. only two were my picks, i traded for guidry in a strip down. the other two were legitimate, coming in in last place picks.
June 15, 2006 at 05:58PM View BBCode
Originally posted by lvnwrth
Also helps if you have four #1 overall picks in your starting rotation, huh? ;)
it do lvnwrth. you must be talking about the braves. actually its only three, guidry, macey and glaus. only two were my picks, i traded for guidry in a strip down. the other two were legitimate, coming in in last place picks.
tm4559
this stuff kills me. in the first place, innings like this do happen in real baseball, one like it happened to the marlins last season. sometimes teams just can't get the other side out. lets look at this tenth inning
"Inning: 10 Milwaukee
Enrique Vasquez pitching.
Howie Barrett singles.
Gary Hostetler walks.
Jose Gonzalez walks.
Bert Carrithers singles.
Howie Barrett scores."
the closer comes in, with a lead, but the can't get anybody out? that never happened? i have seen it happen plenty, to good closers. and this closer is A- overall, A+/B. i looked him up.
http://www.simdynasty.com/player.jsp?player=nobody&mode=stats&id=2388156
despite ernie's gaudy earned run average on 50 some odd innings, which doesn't mean anything anyway, its too small to tell how well he has really pitched, he isn't all that good.
he gave up a single to [url=http://www.simdynasty.com/player.jsp?mode=player&playername=nobody&id=2388164]Barrett[/url] the hens' number two hitter, walked the three and four hitters (a real pitcher might do that for any number of reasons, wildness, nibbling, bad umpiring, or fear of contact, pressure, what have you) and gave up a single to the fifth hitter, [url=http://www.simdynasty.com/player.jsp?mode=player&playername=nobody&id=2388396] Carrithers [/url]. that is not much of stretch for me, he is a career .300 hitter. the hitters are not defenseless, why are they just supposed to ground out meekly when your fearsome A- closer comes in?
good hitters are going to hit that, even if he doesn't walk them. and B control pitchers issue plenty of walks, and plenty of singles, so he got the flips: single, walk, walk, single. i do not find that very unusual. now, your settings don't show much faith in old ernie to get himself out of trouble, s:
Ric Fernandez comes in from the bullpen to pitch.
now, ric isn't as good as ernie, not that that makes a hell of a lot of difference, he could be awesome and could still give up some hits, just like old lidge did in the playoffs last season. but ric is B+ overall, b/b+, he carried a six run era last season, and recieved three improves on the control, none on his sad sack velocity
http://www.simdynasty.com/player.jsp?player=nobody&mode=stats&id=2388471
so anyway, last years meatball pitcher, the famous ric, coaxes out a fly ball from the ss and strikes out the seventh hitter, both of these are ok hitters, he did well to get them:
"Nick Goodwin flies out to the left fielder.
Ham Taubensee strikes out."
then he gives up a single, scoring two runs, to the eight hitter, the catcher:
"Tommy Giordano singles.
Gary Hostetler scores.
Jose Gonzalez scores. "
i admit, that should not happen, fernadez is awesome and all, but nobody likes catchers, i mean, they should just catch and keep their mask on, and strike out when the game is on the line, huh? ok, but it didn't happen, the catcher picked up a couple of RBI, the lead is gone, there are still people on base, and the hens won't cooperate, they are pinch hitting for their pitcher, as any sane manager would do:
"Haywood Nixon is pinch hitting for Jose Suarez. Pinch hitting for the relief pitcher because it is in or after the 7 inning.
Haywood Nixon singles. "
haywood is a another catcher, adding insult to injury, but he gets a single, and by now ric, i guess, is wishing he were back in some other town, playing some other game. but he must soldier on, the top of the order is coming up, and the game is not entirely out of reach (i might also add here, we must not have been allowing help from the starters to come in, the hook seemed really quick for the closer, but the manager is showing some fearsome confidence in ric.
"Orville Keifer doubles.
Bert Carrithers scores.
Tommy Giordano scores.
Haywood Nixon scores. "
wow, keifer hit a double. alert the media, he only hits 25 or 30 of them a season.
"Howie Barrett singles.
Orville Keifer scores. "
barett hit a single. why not, he could hit your awesome closer 10 minutes ago, why should he not hit a single against ricky?
"Gary Hostetler doubles.
Jose Gonzalez hits a home run.
Howie Barrett scores.
Gary Hostetler scores."
this sequence doesn't seem all that wacky to me, its pretty typical for a crummy pitcher trying to get good hitters out, the damage is done, and a manager wouldn't be interested in burning more bullpen, let ricky finish. he is a stud. maybe he will learn something, and be able to get these guys out next time.
finally, mercifully, the game ends.
"Terry Blasingame is pinch hitting for Bert Carrithers. Pinch hitting to get a younger player some at bats.
Terry Blasingame flies out to the left fielder. "
you look at that 10 they scored, and you say, "that shouldn't happen, there has to be something wrong." i look at it, and i say, it could very well happen. it has happened, it does happen, and it should happen. just as the closer coming in and getting 1-2-3 should happen sometime. and that happens a lot too.
[Edited on 6-15-2006 by tm4559]
[Edited on 6-15-2006 by tm4559]
June 15, 2006 at 06:43PM View BBCode
Originally posted by CardShark
Either make the endurance penalty not as harsh or allow more pitchers on the staff so innings like this one don't happen again which just happened to me today. Keep in mind, I have 2 As, 6 A-s & 2 B+s on my staff (so I don't have any really bad pitchers).
http://209.51.167.204/boxscore.jsp?boxscoreid=5301667&cityid=9
And I'm not complaining, cause I produce innings like this too - What goes around comes around. I would just prefer that nobody has innings like this, cause it's very very unrealistic.
this stuff kills me. in the first place, innings like this do happen in real baseball, one like it happened to the marlins last season. sometimes teams just can't get the other side out. lets look at this tenth inning
"Inning: 10 Milwaukee
Enrique Vasquez pitching.
Howie Barrett singles.
Gary Hostetler walks.
Jose Gonzalez walks.
Bert Carrithers singles.
Howie Barrett scores."
the closer comes in, with a lead, but the can't get anybody out? that never happened? i have seen it happen plenty, to good closers. and this closer is A- overall, A+/B. i looked him up.
http://www.simdynasty.com/player.jsp?player=nobody&mode=stats&id=2388156
despite ernie's gaudy earned run average on 50 some odd innings, which doesn't mean anything anyway, its too small to tell how well he has really pitched, he isn't all that good.
he gave up a single to [url=http://www.simdynasty.com/player.jsp?mode=player&playername=nobody&id=2388164]Barrett[/url] the hens' number two hitter, walked the three and four hitters (a real pitcher might do that for any number of reasons, wildness, nibbling, bad umpiring, or fear of contact, pressure, what have you) and gave up a single to the fifth hitter, [url=http://www.simdynasty.com/player.jsp?mode=player&playername=nobody&id=2388396] Carrithers [/url]. that is not much of stretch for me, he is a career .300 hitter. the hitters are not defenseless, why are they just supposed to ground out meekly when your fearsome A- closer comes in?
good hitters are going to hit that, even if he doesn't walk them. and B control pitchers issue plenty of walks, and plenty of singles, so he got the flips: single, walk, walk, single. i do not find that very unusual. now, your settings don't show much faith in old ernie to get himself out of trouble, s:
Ric Fernandez comes in from the bullpen to pitch.
now, ric isn't as good as ernie, not that that makes a hell of a lot of difference, he could be awesome and could still give up some hits, just like old lidge did in the playoffs last season. but ric is B+ overall, b/b+, he carried a six run era last season, and recieved three improves on the control, none on his sad sack velocity
http://www.simdynasty.com/player.jsp?player=nobody&mode=stats&id=2388471
so anyway, last years meatball pitcher, the famous ric, coaxes out a fly ball from the ss and strikes out the seventh hitter, both of these are ok hitters, he did well to get them:
"Nick Goodwin flies out to the left fielder.
Ham Taubensee strikes out."
then he gives up a single, scoring two runs, to the eight hitter, the catcher:
"Tommy Giordano singles.
Gary Hostetler scores.
Jose Gonzalez scores. "
i admit, that should not happen, fernadez is awesome and all, but nobody likes catchers, i mean, they should just catch and keep their mask on, and strike out when the game is on the line, huh? ok, but it didn't happen, the catcher picked up a couple of RBI, the lead is gone, there are still people on base, and the hens won't cooperate, they are pinch hitting for their pitcher, as any sane manager would do:
"Haywood Nixon is pinch hitting for Jose Suarez. Pinch hitting for the relief pitcher because it is in or after the 7 inning.
Haywood Nixon singles. "
haywood is a another catcher, adding insult to injury, but he gets a single, and by now ric, i guess, is wishing he were back in some other town, playing some other game. but he must soldier on, the top of the order is coming up, and the game is not entirely out of reach (i might also add here, we must not have been allowing help from the starters to come in, the hook seemed really quick for the closer, but the manager is showing some fearsome confidence in ric.
"Orville Keifer doubles.
Bert Carrithers scores.
Tommy Giordano scores.
Haywood Nixon scores. "
wow, keifer hit a double. alert the media, he only hits 25 or 30 of them a season.
"Howie Barrett singles.
Orville Keifer scores. "
barett hit a single. why not, he could hit your awesome closer 10 minutes ago, why should he not hit a single against ricky?
"Gary Hostetler doubles.
Jose Gonzalez hits a home run.
Howie Barrett scores.
Gary Hostetler scores."
this sequence doesn't seem all that wacky to me, its pretty typical for a crummy pitcher trying to get good hitters out, the damage is done, and a manager wouldn't be interested in burning more bullpen, let ricky finish. he is a stud. maybe he will learn something, and be able to get these guys out next time.
finally, mercifully, the game ends.
"Terry Blasingame is pinch hitting for Bert Carrithers. Pinch hitting to get a younger player some at bats.
Terry Blasingame flies out to the left fielder. "
you look at that 10 they scored, and you say, "that shouldn't happen, there has to be something wrong." i look at it, and i say, it could very well happen. it has happened, it does happen, and it should happen. just as the closer coming in and getting 1-2-3 should happen sometime. and that happens a lot too.
[Edited on 6-15-2006 by tm4559]
[Edited on 6-15-2006 by tm4559]
CardShark
No... I look at Tyson's data and say, "Well, this probably happened because the endurance penalty is really harsh." And then I think, maybe an 11 or 12 man staff might be better to avoid this. Or, if that's not possible, then I'm thinking that maybe the endurance penalty should be softened a bit. I go by what Tyson researched on 9th inning scoring in SimD, not a Marlins game I saw last year. But thanks for the breakdown, hope it didn't take all day. :P
June 15, 2006 at 10:00PM View BBCode
you look at that 10 they scored, and you say, "that shouldn't happen, there has to be something wrong." i look at it, and i say, it could very well happen. it has happened, it does happen, and it should happen.
No... I look at Tyson's data and say, "Well, this probably happened because the endurance penalty is really harsh." And then I think, maybe an 11 or 12 man staff might be better to avoid this. Or, if that's not possible, then I'm thinking that maybe the endurance penalty should be softened a bit. I go by what Tyson researched on 9th inning scoring in SimD, not a Marlins game I saw last year. But thanks for the breakdown, hope it didn't take all day. :P
tm4559
June 15, 2006 at 11:16PM View BBCode
your pitchers gave up all those hits, walks, and runs because they were unlucky (the closer), and less talented and unlucky (the second reliever) and because you didn't allow help from the starters in the rotation. endurance or anything else didn't have anything to do with it. it was bad luck and bad settings. and even if a starter had come in, the same thing could have happened. there is nothing unusual about hitters hitting the ball. thats what they do.
jzyehoshua
June 22, 2006 at 09:40PM View BBCode
Alright, I still can't figure out how to get my starting pitchers to throw halfway decent, and am not using the option anymore to take them out as soon as they begin to tire... but I have started changing the preferences for all my teams to always bring in the most rested bullpen reliever via the way I said and am seeing what seems to be dramatic changes in relief pitching effectiveness on all my teams. Now if I could just get those starters to pitch decent as well...
jzyehoshua
June 22, 2006 at 09:43PM View BBCode
All my teams seem to follow the exact same structure now. They are super on-base % guys who score a ton of runs and lead all teams in average and on base % but not so much with slugging. They tend to commit very few errors and now the relief pitching on all of them is a strong point as well. If I can just figure out how to get good starting pitchers my teams will all be pretty unbeatable...