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FiveToolPlayer
That's not crazy. I agree with you. The system that we're looking at now won't work. It will cause more problems than it will solve.
August 24, 2004 at 09:52PM View BBCode
Originally posted by CaseyStengel
I know this may be crazy, but I would almost prefer ranking ALL the players
That's not crazy. I agree with you. The system that we're looking at now won't work. It will cause more problems than it will solve.
hobos
August 24, 2004 at 10:33PM View BBCode
The more I think and read, the more I have to agree, this won't work, at least it won't be an improvement. The only way I think the draft can effectively be divided is by age (ex: everyone under 25 will be in a 'minor league draft'). Even that isn't a great idea though. A list of every player would be the idea
GolfHack
Make the selection process 45 seconds and multiply that by 30 rounds -- that's 6 hours max, most guys don't take the full time as they cue up a player and are ready to go before their turn comes up.
And, again you don't need to be there if you don't want to be -- it works the same as a ranking system.
No matter what system you employ w/o a live draft, an owner can't adjust a pick depending on needs, flow of draft or run on a position, etc. You're better off just allocating players and letting teams start from an equivalent position.
August 25, 2004 at 02:48AM View BBCode
2 minutes was just thrown out there -- most owners would participate in maybe 18 -28 rounds and when not available the system is set to pick the next highest rated guy on the board which can be customized by an owner prior to the draft.Make the selection process 45 seconds and multiply that by 30 rounds -- that's 6 hours max, most guys don't take the full time as they cue up a player and are ready to go before their turn comes up.
And, again you don't need to be there if you don't want to be -- it works the same as a ranking system.
No matter what system you employ w/o a live draft, an owner can't adjust a pick depending on needs, flow of draft or run on a position, etc. You're better off just allocating players and letting teams start from an equivalent position.
disciple
I do like the new Preferences for the initial draft. Being able to see all of the players before the draft takes place is a beautiful thing.
August 25, 2004 at 12:19PM View BBCode
I don't like the draftcard concept. Is there a setting that you could add that would allow each owner to turn this on or off? If an owner decides to turn this off he would need to use one of the old settings: totally balanced, best available, etc. Whether or not an owner decided to use the new draftcard, he should still be able to pre-rank the players using the new Preferences screen.I do like the new Preferences for the initial draft. Being able to see all of the players before the draft takes place is a beautiful thing.
tysonlowery
The major decision point is whether we have people rank all 960 players on one screen, or split it up by position. That decision kind of flows to the other decision points. I felt that it was easier to rank the players by position and less daunting when given 100 players to rank at a time verses 960.
This may take 4-5 hours to rank your players the first time. But remember that it is a one time thing, and you should have at least several days to do it.
We will add a way to see which pick you have in the draft.
Thinking about it more, I think it makes sense to add some position groupings to the choices. Here is what I'm thinking of adding: P, IF, OF, BAT (any batter). Do you think that would add enough flexibility?
August 25, 2004 at 02:29PM View BBCode
First off, we're not going to the live draft stuff at this time (or possibly ever). Its a huge undertaking. The system we just added pretty much copies what I've seen fantasy baseball sites use.The major decision point is whether we have people rank all 960 players on one screen, or split it up by position. That decision kind of flows to the other decision points. I felt that it was easier to rank the players by position and less daunting when given 100 players to rank at a time verses 960.
This may take 4-5 hours to rank your players the first time. But remember that it is a one time thing, and you should have at least several days to do it.
We will add a way to see which pick you have in the draft.
Thinking about it more, I think it makes sense to add some position groupings to the choices. Here is what I'm thinking of adding: P, IF, OF, BAT (any batter). Do you think that would add enough flexibility?
tysonlowery
August 25, 2004 at 02:32PM View BBCode
One other thought. What if we added another button at the top of the page? You'd have two buttons, "Update this position using these ratings" or "Update All positions using these ratings". We'd also probably want a warning message if you click the later button.
Jet
I don't want to be a rebuilding team full of teenagers when I start out. So I'm not going to put a ton of kids at the top no matter how good they might be. BUT I do want my THREE prospects who are worth putting CPs on.
The problem is if I put to many of them to high on my draft lists, then I'm stuck with a bunch of teenagers who will rot. I can try and trade them but I probably wont get good value for them and would much rather have drafted at least 10 other guys who went after that slot. If I put to few guys higher up in the list then I risk there being a few teams that horde all the teenagers and I have to give up both arms and legs for a couple because these teams wont care about draft picks much or older players.
Both situations really really suck. And both this and the old system just work to create unbalanced leagues. What about adding a max/min number of players at different age groups? Something like "no more than X amount of players age 20 or under." That way I can put teenagers higher in my ratings and not worry about getting to many of them.
This is a draft model that works for fantasy sites. But this is a franchise game where things like ages and development potential REALLY matter. You just can't use the same model because it works there, this is an entirely different scenerio.
August 25, 2004 at 05:01PM View BBCode
The thing I don't like is you still have no control over amount of various age groups. It's the same problem I had with the last draft system.I don't want to be a rebuilding team full of teenagers when I start out. So I'm not going to put a ton of kids at the top no matter how good they might be. BUT I do want my THREE prospects who are worth putting CPs on.
The problem is if I put to many of them to high on my draft lists, then I'm stuck with a bunch of teenagers who will rot. I can try and trade them but I probably wont get good value for them and would much rather have drafted at least 10 other guys who went after that slot. If I put to few guys higher up in the list then I risk there being a few teams that horde all the teenagers and I have to give up both arms and legs for a couple because these teams wont care about draft picks much or older players.
Both situations really really suck. And both this and the old system just work to create unbalanced leagues. What about adding a max/min number of players at different age groups? Something like "no more than X amount of players age 20 or under." That way I can put teenagers higher in my ratings and not worry about getting to many of them.
This is a draft model that works for fantasy sites. But this is a franchise game where things like ages and development potential REALLY matter. You just can't use the same model because it works there, this is an entirely different scenerio.
FiveToolPlayer
August 25, 2004 at 05:12PM View BBCode
I think the goal should be to get as close to a live draft without it actually being live. Drafting by what position you want first (which this system essentially is) is further from it than the old system. At least with the old system, ABE would see that there are no good shortstops and instead of taking a crappy shortstop, he'd take a good third baseman.
DeVeau31
All the positions separately and then P, IF, OF, Bat.
August 25, 2004 at 06:03PM View BBCode
we definitely broader rankings. How the hell do I know that I want a 2B in the 4th round when I have no clue who will be there? Before we draft, we need to fix this. We need:All the positions separately and then P, IF, OF, Bat.
FiveToolPlayer
This is the major problem. ABE knew who was available and wouldn't make stupid decissions based on a positional need in round 4. This new system won't care if there is an A+ outfielder available, it will take the C- 2B even though 30 2B's have already been taken. Also, the later the round, the more ridiculous it gets.
August 25, 2004 at 07:24PM View BBCode
Originally posted by DeVeau31
How the hell do I know that I want a 2B in the 4th round
This is the major problem. ABE knew who was available and wouldn't make stupid decissions based on a positional need in round 4. This new system won't care if there is an A+ outfielder available, it will take the C- 2B even though 30 2B's have already been taken. Also, the later the round, the more ridiculous it gets.
DeVeau31
August 25, 2004 at 07:33PM View BBCode
I also refuse to draft without knowing my position. I can't even say what I want in the first round if I don't know where I'm picking. We need to take our time and do this right before we worry about games.
Jet
Say for example you have a draft class where there are 8 REALLY good 2B players. The top three of them are maybe the best hitters in the game, two of them are awesome prospects, and the other three are all A- also. But after that it drops off significantly to older B+ players and middle of the road mid/late 20's B guys and mild prospects. An owner looks at these top 8 guys and decided he can probably get at least ONE of them, and these are all worthy of 1st round picks. Well, it turns out 10 other owners had the same idea. So the guys who are 9th and 10th out of that group in picking end up with a couple B rated 27yo hitters, when they could have had that A- rated 28yo SS who was available and just converted him to 2B or grabbed a 2B player later in the draft.
For the first few rounds things like that wont happen to often. It's really the 4th and 5th rounds on where your going to start to see things like this. I will guarantee we will get constant complaints that there was a run on a certain position in the first few rounds and someone got stuck with a really crappy player at that position when there were MUCH better players out there at other positions that they still needed. Something like that is going to happen virtually every draft under this system.
You want to draft and play games, I'm fine with that because we do need to test other bugs with the site and games need to run for that. But after that this system should be reconsidered and modified or scrapped. We can run a seasons and then draft again, and again, and again until something more feasible is found.
[Edited on 8-25-2004 by Jet]
August 25, 2004 at 07:59PM View BBCode
The more I look at this draft system the more and more I dislike it and find serious flaws with it. I don't even think broadening it to OF and IF would help entirely.Say for example you have a draft class where there are 8 REALLY good 2B players. The top three of them are maybe the best hitters in the game, two of them are awesome prospects, and the other three are all A- also. But after that it drops off significantly to older B+ players and middle of the road mid/late 20's B guys and mild prospects. An owner looks at these top 8 guys and decided he can probably get at least ONE of them, and these are all worthy of 1st round picks. Well, it turns out 10 other owners had the same idea. So the guys who are 9th and 10th out of that group in picking end up with a couple B rated 27yo hitters, when they could have had that A- rated 28yo SS who was available and just converted him to 2B or grabbed a 2B player later in the draft.
For the first few rounds things like that wont happen to often. It's really the 4th and 5th rounds on where your going to start to see things like this. I will guarantee we will get constant complaints that there was a run on a certain position in the first few rounds and someone got stuck with a really crappy player at that position when there were MUCH better players out there at other positions that they still needed. Something like that is going to happen virtually every draft under this system.
You want to draft and play games, I'm fine with that because we do need to test other bugs with the site and games need to run for that. But after that this system should be reconsidered and modified or scrapped. We can run a seasons and then draft again, and again, and again until something more feasible is found.
[Edited on 8-25-2004 by Jet]
tysonlowery
We've used a very similar system in keeper leagues for fantasy football and baseball. It works out well.
The overall idea is that you might not necessarily draft the best players from 1 to 960 in the draft. But you can decide which positions are key for you. For example, I'd probably draft at least 4 SP before drafting a single RP - I don't care who has what talent. And I'd probably draft SP in at least 2-3 of the top 5 rounds. If I draft a SP in the 5th round, I know for sure I'll get a top 80 SP. But more than likely I'm looking at a top 50 SP depending on what everyone else does.
I'm going to go through and see how many people have adjusted their draft settings.
Just to back up a step. The goal of the new system is to give you more control over which individual players you end up with and to make teams less homogenous. I think this new system accomplishes both of those goals.
I also think adding the groupings for positions covers most of the other complaints and will make this a far superior system to the one in place.
Tom - as mentioned before, we will add in something so you can see who is picking where.
August 25, 2004 at 09:03PM View BBCode
I don't think the young players will get hoarded, but we will see how it works out. A lot of this stuff goes back to game theory. Like the example Jet gave - its an interesting decision, do you go against the grain to get the top pitcher knowing everyone else is going to go for one of the 8 good 2B?We've used a very similar system in keeper leagues for fantasy football and baseball. It works out well.
The overall idea is that you might not necessarily draft the best players from 1 to 960 in the draft. But you can decide which positions are key for you. For example, I'd probably draft at least 4 SP before drafting a single RP - I don't care who has what talent. And I'd probably draft SP in at least 2-3 of the top 5 rounds. If I draft a SP in the 5th round, I know for sure I'll get a top 80 SP. But more than likely I'm looking at a top 50 SP depending on what everyone else does.
I'm going to go through and see how many people have adjusted their draft settings.
For the first few rounds things like that wont happen to often. It's really the 4th and 5th rounds on where your going to start to see things like this. I will guarantee we will get constant complaints that there was a run on a certain position in the first few rounds and someone got stuck with a really crappy player at that position when there were MUCH better players out there at other positions that they still needed. Something like that is going to happen virtually every draft under this system.Well that's all part of the game within the game. Do you go against the grain and pick up key players in positions that might be overlooked in round 8?
Just to back up a step. The goal of the new system is to give you more control over which individual players you end up with and to make teams less homogenous. I think this new system accomplishes both of those goals.
I also think adding the groupings for positions covers most of the other complaints and will make this a far superior system to the one in place.
Tom - as mentioned before, we will add in something so you can see who is picking where.
poppabeta
Tyson, should just go ahead an make the changes that he outlines above and let's try it.
August 25, 2004 at 09:22PM View BBCode
We all yearn for the best possible game. What we are part of, to say the obvious, is the beta test group. This change in the game is massive and because of it there will be many 'bugs'. It is our role to try it out. I suggest that we go ahead and just try the 'baby' out. We don't have to be tied to the rersults for twenty seasons. I think that we will have a much better view of what may need to be altered after we see the results.Tyson, should just go ahead an make the changes that he outlines above and let's try it.
Jet
But I still disagree with you Tyson that this gives you more control. I'd much rather draft with the old method and know I'll get a good player in the 5th round than get stuck with some scrub because the draft wasn't deep in the position I had in the 5th round. Especially if there are tons of players at other positions who are MUCH better.
I like the statement that was used about trying to get as close to a live draft as possible. Where it isn't perfect but ABE just wont do stupid things. And the fact is there is no way any real person is going to take a B rated 28yo 2B player in the 7th round when there is a A- rated 27yo SS still available. No SimD owner would do that, and no GM would do that in real life. And this system is going to make things like that happen a lot.
August 25, 2004 at 09:30PM View BBCode
I agree with poppa that we definately need to try it out a few times and see what happens.But I still disagree with you Tyson that this gives you more control. I'd much rather draft with the old method and know I'll get a good player in the 5th round than get stuck with some scrub because the draft wasn't deep in the position I had in the 5th round. Especially if there are tons of players at other positions who are MUCH better.
I like the statement that was used about trying to get as close to a live draft as possible. Where it isn't perfect but ABE just wont do stupid things. And the fact is there is no way any real person is going to take a B rated 28yo 2B player in the 7th round when there is a A- rated 27yo SS still available. No SimD owner would do that, and no GM would do that in real life. And this system is going to make things like that happen a lot.
poppabeta
August 25, 2004 at 10:04PM View BBCode
I'm definitely not into 'I told you so' but everyone who has raised their concerns about what might happen remember exactly their point and let's see if we can get some hard facts from the draft to demonstrate the various ponts. Maybe we can come up some changes that will eliminate the problems and move forward,
FiveToolPlayer
I've never heard of this kind of draft in any fantasy league. I could see how it would make sense in football but keep in mind that you draft less specific positions and players skills aren't as cut and dry seeing as a player can improve or decline dramatically in real life.
The successful drafts I've seen like this ask you to rank all of the players and then you can weight positions and specify how many you want of each position. They are quite similar to the amateur draft here.
Again, I feel this system will do more harm than good.
Finally, what are the complaints people have about the old draft? Are they upset that they get relief pitchers instead of starters or batters? If that's the case, maybe we should have two draft setups, one for pitchers, one for hitters and then the manager gets to weight whether they want to draft a team that's better at hitting or pitching. He'd have his list of pitchers which included starters and relievers and then he'd have his full list of hitters.
August 26, 2004 at 02:21AM View BBCode
We may not see a problem with one draft or even ten but there will be problems. Owners will complain when they see that they drafted a B- player in round 3 over an A- player.I've never heard of this kind of draft in any fantasy league. I could see how it would make sense in football but keep in mind that you draft less specific positions and players skills aren't as cut and dry seeing as a player can improve or decline dramatically in real life.
The successful drafts I've seen like this ask you to rank all of the players and then you can weight positions and specify how many you want of each position. They are quite similar to the amateur draft here.
Again, I feel this system will do more harm than good.
Finally, what are the complaints people have about the old draft? Are they upset that they get relief pitchers instead of starters or batters? If that's the case, maybe we should have two draft setups, one for pitchers, one for hitters and then the manager gets to weight whether they want to draft a team that's better at hitting or pitching. He'd have his list of pitchers which included starters and relievers and then he'd have his full list of hitters.
FiveToolPlayer
August 26, 2004 at 02:35AM View BBCode
I just ran through and ranked players. First off all, this system needs a way to say you want an OF, not LF, CF, RF. No manager would EVER take a B- LF over a B+ CF. Also, once you get down a ways in the rankings, it's a crap shoot as to what you should put for a position. How can I make a decission on what position I want to pick for round 30 if I have no idea who will be left? Maybe this creates some strategy but it's extremely unrealistic.
pwj
August 26, 2004 at 04:34AM View BBCode
I have a small yet significant problem. I can't change my preferences: when I change the value settings for my SPs, the draft order neither changes, nor do my new settings show when I hit the gray Update Rankings button. (BTW, hitting the blue Update Player Rankings doesn't do it either.) Am I stuck with my original prefs and the accompanying player order?
DeVeau31
August 26, 2004 at 01:03PM View BBCode
are we going to make the changes before we draft? More broad position selections and draft order?
tysonlowery
August 26, 2004 at 02:42PM View BBCode
We probably won't make these changes for the first draft - I'd like to run through some games so we can test a few of the new changes. I just want to get some players in the league so we can run some games again. So we'll take these results with a grain of salt.
Jet
Now we have categories and each person has a pick # in each category. SP-1, SP-2, ..., RP-1, RP-2, ..., C-1, C-2, ..., 1B-1, etc. So say here is what I get assigned in some categories...
SP-1 #6 pick
1B-1 #3 pick
CF-1 #16 pick
SP-2 #1 pick
RP-1 #10 pick
3B-3 #12 pick
SS-1 #14 pick
etc.
Then we give owners maybe a day or two to try and trade picks. So if I really want that CF-1 #1 pick I can try and trade some of my other picks for it.
The key here is that I know what # I'm drafting at each position. So if there are only 4 good catchers, and I'm drafting like 12th, then I can adjust my rating appropriately to get a decent prospect at that pick and get a average guy to fill in in the second catcher round.
Break It Down By Category Instead
August 26, 2004 at 03:26PM View BBCode
I was thinking it might work if instead of doing the draft as a complete thing, if it was broken down by position instead of rounds. This would be similar to how ESPN does their by position option for fantasy football drafts. Everyone is given a draft position in each of 50 categories. Everyone's draft position should come close to averaging out. It has to be a well balanced draft, something like 4 players at each position, 9 SP, and 9 RP to make 50 total slots.Now we have categories and each person has a pick # in each category. SP-1, SP-2, ..., RP-1, RP-2, ..., C-1, C-2, ..., 1B-1, etc. So say here is what I get assigned in some categories...
SP-1 #6 pick
1B-1 #3 pick
CF-1 #16 pick
SP-2 #1 pick
RP-1 #10 pick
3B-3 #12 pick
SS-1 #14 pick
etc.
Then we give owners maybe a day or two to try and trade picks. So if I really want that CF-1 #1 pick I can try and trade some of my other picks for it.
The key here is that I know what # I'm drafting at each position. So if there are only 4 good catchers, and I'm drafting like 12th, then I can adjust my rating appropriately to get a decent prospect at that pick and get a average guy to fill in in the second catcher round.
tysonlowery
I think that would work out well. What do others think?
August 26, 2004 at 03:30PM View BBCode
That was the original way I thought of doing it - before this fantasy season. Its the Sportline vs. the Sandbox way of drafting.I think that would work out well. What do others think?
tysonlowery
Everyone would get either a 1st or 2nd overall pick in each of these 8 categories:
SP, RP, C, 1B, 2B, 3B, SS, OF
The order would snake within each position. So if you draft 5th at RP, you would draft 27th as well.
We would discuss the importance of each position as well. So lets say we determined the order of importance went something like this:
SP
SS
OF
2B
C
1B
RP
3B
If you drafted 1st and 32nd at SP, you would draft 16th & 17th at SS and probably something like 4th and 28th at 3B.
I'm not sure if trades would be allowed in the system.
August 26, 2004 at 03:35PM View BBCode
Here is how I had designed that system on paper:Everyone would get either a 1st or 2nd overall pick in each of these 8 categories:
SP, RP, C, 1B, 2B, 3B, SS, OF
The order would snake within each position. So if you draft 5th at RP, you would draft 27th as well.
We would discuss the importance of each position as well. So lets say we determined the order of importance went something like this:
SP
SS
OF
2B
C
1B
RP
3B
If you drafted 1st and 32nd at SP, you would draft 16th & 17th at SS and probably something like 4th and 28th at 3B.
I'm not sure if trades would be allowed in the system.
DeVeau31
August 26, 2004 at 03:35PM View BBCode
it would be 1,000 times easier to digest. But how does it work in later rounds?