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Admin
There is now a 4th minor league improvement chance for each game. This is for position changers. Abe will randomly select a player in your minor leagues for this IC, out of any guys who have a position selected in the Minor leagues. So if you only have 1 guy, he will be selected every game.
Abe will then give him an IC for position changing.
I didn't put any restrictions in here about how many players you have to pick. I figure if you want to focus on 1 guy, that's your choice. Do you disagree?
The other thought is to limit this to guys with 4 CPs or less, so you have to give up something to make it happen.
Tyson
Minor League Position Changes
September 27, 2007 at 05:13PM View BBCode
I've changed how position changes in the minor leagues work. This code should be complete soon, just ironing out the bug I found.There is now a 4th minor league improvement chance for each game. This is for position changers. Abe will randomly select a player in your minor leagues for this IC, out of any guys who have a position selected in the Minor leagues. So if you only have 1 guy, he will be selected every game.
Abe will then give him an IC for position changing.
I didn't put any restrictions in here about how many players you have to pick. I figure if you want to focus on 1 guy, that's your choice. Do you disagree?
The other thought is to limit this to guys with 4 CPs or less, so you have to give up something to make it happen.
Tyson
Admin
This will be coupled with a future change that will give you a downside to converting a guy's position in the major leagues. I may work on that tomorrow.
And at some point, I'd like to make illogical position changes impossible. For example, taking a 1B, converting him to LF, then to CF, then to 2B, then to SS. A guy who starts out as a 1B should never be allowed to be a legit SS. I've seen some good suggestions for this in the Enhancements area.
Tyson
September 27, 2007 at 05:17PM View BBCode
In other words, there is no longer a down-side to converting someone's position in the minor leagues.This will be coupled with a future change that will give you a downside to converting a guy's position in the major leagues. I may work on that tomorrow.
And at some point, I'd like to make illogical position changes impossible. For example, taking a 1B, converting him to LF, then to CF, then to 2B, then to SS. A guy who starts out as a 1B should never be allowed to be a legit SS. I've seen some good suggestions for this in the Enhancements area.
Tyson
dunn_acolyte
September 27, 2007 at 05:45PM View BBCode
I think this is great. It is always frustrating to have to change guys in majors especially after new +/- system went into effect. Along the other line a catcher should be able to convert to 3B easier as it happens in MLB as this has always bugged me on your position change chart.
kittens
September 27, 2007 at 06:02PM View BBCode
Howdy Tyson, great changes, certainly a need for them. My feeling on unrestricted ICs for minor league change of position is .... no restrictions if at the same time you implement the major league change of position code. However if you only implement minor changes then it should be tied to something one has to give up. In other words I could just pick anyone I wanted to get a lot of ICs and change his position for the sole pupose of improving him and then put him wherever I want in the majors. If both major and minor changes are put in at once, this appraoch would make less sense to do. Outstanding changes. Bryce
dunn_acolyte
September 27, 2007 at 06:23PM View BBCode
But Bryce the minor league position change IC would only be used to change position not get regular chances. As it is now if you change position in minors you lose IC for that guy as every IC he gets is for position change. At least this is the way I interpret it.
Admin
Tyson
September 27, 2007 at 06:25PM View BBCode
I think Bryce is addressing my question about whether it is appropriate to allow people to convert minor league positions without penalty. He makes a good point.Tyson
kittens
September 27, 2007 at 06:35PM View BBCode
Howdy, actually I was addressing both of those points. Definitely the penalty and no penalty issue but I did I overlook the fact that the 4th IC would only apply to position change. Bryce
dunn_acolyte
[Edited on 9-27-2007 by dunn_acolyte]
September 27, 2007 at 07:23PM View BBCode
I see what you mean but the system as it is now is unfair and not relevant to MLB because while a player is learning a new position he is not developing in other areas and I assume in MLB a player can still develop in other areas while changing positions. Maybe you could have it set if it would not be to hard to program that a player does not improve in range and arm while changing position as a penalty but hitting improves are not affected.[Edited on 9-27-2007 by dunn_acolyte]
tworoosters
If I have 4 CPs on a player and designate him as my only option for a positional change will he then receive approximately 54 chances for other skill improves (5*10.8) and 162 chances to convert to his new position ?
What will be the average conversion rate on position changes ?
Will a conversion at position change still equal 5% ?
September 27, 2007 at 10:39PM View BBCode
To clarify:If I have 4 CPs on a player and designate him as my only option for a positional change will he then receive approximately 54 chances for other skill improves (5*10.8) and 162 chances to convert to his new position ?
What will be the average conversion rate on position changes ?
Will a conversion at position change still equal 5% ?
Admin
Thoughts?
Tyson
[Edited on 9-27-2007 by Admin]
September 27, 2007 at 10:53PM View BBCode
If I have 4 CPs on a player and designate him as my only option for a positional change will he then receive approximately 54 chances for other skill improves (5*10.8) and 162 chances to convert to his new position ?Yes. Even if he has 0 CPs on him, or 5 CPs on him, he will get 162 chances to convert to the new position. That's how it is setup at the moment.
What will be the average conversion rate on position changes ?It depends on how difficult a change it is. I don't see anything baked in about age or defensive skill level. It's using the same code it has always used for this. Unfortunately, we don't have improvement tracking for position changers. Maybe I should publish the formulas...
Will a conversion at position change still equal 5% ?Yes, still 5%. Is that too much?
Thoughts?
Tyson
[Edited on 9-27-2007 by Admin]
tworoosters
If we are trying to be more realistic in terms of position changes we can start with having the initial skill set match the position, there is no way an 18 year old with D- range and a D arm is playing SS - so lets make him an outfielder from the get-go and set some minimum skill requirements for the positions.
[url=http://www.simdynasty.com/player.jsp?id=3663427&statsorimps=stats]Lloyd Dobler[/url] was a D/D- 2B in the initial draft which is patently silly, there is no way a guy with his skill set (huge power, mediocre speed, no range and weak arm) would be playing in the middle infield anywhere so why designate him as a 2B ?
I like the idea of players having no fielding position in the amateur draft. Once drafted they can be designated as:
1) Catcher/3B/1B
2) SS/2B/CF
3) 1B/LF/RF
for minor league purposes then once they reach the majors they must declare a position, with conversion only possible within their subset. Minimum defensive skill levels would be required for the various groups so everyone couldn't automatically brand their big sticks as SS and Catchers.
Minor league designation would have to occur during their first year, players undrafted or waived before declaration would be subject to ABE designations.
[Edited on 9-28-2007 by tworoosters]
September 28, 2007 at 12:20AM View BBCode
As long as we are in the "positional change" mode can we please stop having amateur draft SS/2B with D-/D range and arm ?If we are trying to be more realistic in terms of position changes we can start with having the initial skill set match the position, there is no way an 18 year old with D- range and a D arm is playing SS - so lets make him an outfielder from the get-go and set some minimum skill requirements for the positions.
[url=http://www.simdynasty.com/player.jsp?id=3663427&statsorimps=stats]Lloyd Dobler[/url] was a D/D- 2B in the initial draft which is patently silly, there is no way a guy with his skill set (huge power, mediocre speed, no range and weak arm) would be playing in the middle infield anywhere so why designate him as a 2B ?
I like the idea of players having no fielding position in the amateur draft. Once drafted they can be designated as:
1) Catcher/3B/1B
2) SS/2B/CF
3) 1B/LF/RF
for minor league purposes then once they reach the majors they must declare a position, with conversion only possible within their subset. Minimum defensive skill levels would be required for the various groups so everyone couldn't automatically brand their big sticks as SS and Catchers.
Minor league designation would have to occur during their first year, players undrafted or waived before declaration would be subject to ABE designations.
[Edited on 9-28-2007 by tworoosters]
DwightKSchrute
Dunn, could you explain some examples of catchers moving to 3B? Brandon Inge is the only one I can think of and that happened because he's a flat out athlete. I'm curious what other examples are out there.
Tyson, I've read through all of these changes and their great. I think the only change I would make would be to change the rate that a position conversion would be. At 5% it only takes 20 conversions for a player with 162 chances to change positions. I think it should be a whole season task. I don't think tworoosters will agree with me seeing that he's suggesting that positions become more liquid (within reason) but what he's suggesting seems to be a major overhaul.
Thanks.
September 28, 2007 at 01:11PM View BBCode
Originally posted by dunn_acolyte
I think this is great. It is always frustrating to have to change guys in majors especially after new +/- system went into effect. Along the other line a catcher should be able to convert to 3B easier as it happens in MLB as this has always bugged me on your position change chart.
Dunn, could you explain some examples of catchers moving to 3B? Brandon Inge is the only one I can think of and that happened because he's a flat out athlete. I'm curious what other examples are out there.
Tyson, I've read through all of these changes and their great. I think the only change I would make would be to change the rate that a position conversion would be. At 5% it only takes 20 conversions for a player with 162 chances to change positions. I think it should be a whole season task. I don't think tworoosters will agree with me seeing that he's suggesting that positions become more liquid (within reason) but what he's suggesting seems to be a major overhaul.
Thanks.
Admin
Tyson
September 28, 2007 at 01:18PM View BBCode
The way I view Arm and Range is that if a guy is D/D, then he is bad for his position. The skills should be viewed under the aspect of that position. One of the other changes I had in mind was to make illogical position changes impossible. Someone proposed a cool idea a while ago about a sliding scale, where a guy could only make 1 jump to a more difficult position. This would prevent guys from going from 1B to 2B to SS. So that's probably the route I'm going to take here.Tyson
DwightKSchrute
http://www.simdynasty.com/player.jsp?player=nobody&mode=stats&id=2964826
I would be more likely to change ratings when a position switch occurs. For example, an A+ arm at 2b equals a C+ arm at SS and vice versa. Another example of similar skills would be Range at 1b and 3b which would be less than range at SS and 2b. A little bit of work to set up but seems like it would be more realistic.
Just my thoughts. Thanks, Tyson
[Edited on 9-28-2007 by DwightKSchrute]
September 28, 2007 at 01:21PM View BBCode
Only allowing players one jump like that makes it really difficult to make a player a good utility player. I've been working at making this guy a guy who can back me up all around. He's kind of like a Ryan Freel or anything super utility guy in MLB.http://www.simdynasty.com/player.jsp?player=nobody&mode=stats&id=2964826
I would be more likely to change ratings when a position switch occurs. For example, an A+ arm at 2b equals a C+ arm at SS and vice versa. Another example of similar skills would be Range at 1b and 3b which would be less than range at SS and 2b. A little bit of work to set up but seems like it would be more realistic.
Just my thoughts. Thanks, Tyson
[Edited on 9-28-2007 by DwightKSchrute]
tworoosters
Joe Torre, Rudy York, BJ Surhoff, Phil Nevin, Todd Zeile and, sadly, Johnny Bench come to mind.
The switch doesn' t happen at the major league level too often but lots of players are drafted as catchers and converted to 3B in the minors, Eric Hinske and Kelly Gruber are examples (can you tell I'm a Jays fan ?).
Recently Pittsburgh announced that Neil Walker, their 1st round pick in '04 would be moving from catcher to 3B and there is even talk about the Twins converting Joe Mauer to save his body.
The logic is that catchers have good reactions, decent lateral movement and big arms so the move to 3B is pretty logical.
September 28, 2007 at 02:24PM View BBCode
Originally posted by DwightKSchrute
Originally posted by dunn_acolyte
Along the other line a catcher should be able to convert to 3B easier as it happens in MLB as this has always bugged me on your position change chart.
Dunn, could you explain some examples of catchers moving to 3B?
Joe Torre, Rudy York, BJ Surhoff, Phil Nevin, Todd Zeile and, sadly, Johnny Bench come to mind.
The switch doesn' t happen at the major league level too often but lots of players are drafted as catchers and converted to 3B in the minors, Eric Hinske and Kelly Gruber are examples (can you tell I'm a Jays fan ?).
Recently Pittsburgh announced that Neil Walker, their 1st round pick in '04 would be moving from catcher to 3B and there is even talk about the Twins converting Joe Mauer to save his body.
The logic is that catchers have good reactions, decent lateral movement and big arms so the move to 3B is pretty logical.
barterer2002
September 28, 2007 at 02:47PM View BBCode
Tyson, when will we start seeing the minor league improvement showing up in the boxscores?
Admin
Tyson
September 28, 2007 at 03:06PM View BBCode
They should appear right away. Are you not seeing them?Tyson
tworoosters
Can we train pitchers to be positional players, or vise versa ?
September 28, 2007 at 04:14PM View BBCode
They are visible, will they be displayed in "Improvement Report" ?Can we train pitchers to be positional players, or vise versa ?
Admin
Pitchers can't be convert to players or vice versa.
Tyson
September 28, 2007 at 04:36PM View BBCode
No, position changes aren't tracked in the database so they won't be in improvement report.Pitchers can't be convert to players or vice versa.
Tyson
tworoosters
Why not ?
Are you trying to tell me [url=http://www.simdynasty.com/player.jsp?mode=player&playername=nobody&id=3663720]this guy[/url] wouldn't have been moved to Left Field the second after he was drafted ?
Given that the only worthwhile improves a pitcher to hitter, or reverse, would receive in the minors would be positional why not let it happen.
September 28, 2007 at 05:26PM View BBCode
Originally posted by Admin
Pitchers can't be convert to players or vice versa.
Tyson
Why not ?
Are you trying to tell me [url=http://www.simdynasty.com/player.jsp?mode=player&playername=nobody&id=3663720]this guy[/url] wouldn't have been moved to Left Field the second after he was drafted ?
Given that the only worthwhile improves a pitcher to hitter, or reverse, would receive in the minors would be positional why not let it happen.
Admin
I think it should be done at some point, but the time hasn't come yet.
Tyson
September 28, 2007 at 05:34PM View BBCode
It's a ton of work to pull off. A lot more complex than anything I've put in the last few days.I think it should be done at some point, but the time hasn't come yet.
Tyson
lvnwrth
Only allowing players one jump like that makes it really difficult to make a player a good utility player. I've been working at making this guy a guy who can back me up all around. He's kind of like a Ryan Freel or anything super utility guy in MLB.
http://www.simdynasty.com/player.jsp?player=nobody&mode=stats&id=2964826
I would be more likely to change ratings when a position switch occurs. For example, an A+ arm at 2b equals a C+ arm at SS and vice versa. Another example of similar skills would be Range at 1b and 3b which would be less than range at SS and 2b. A little bit of work to set up but seems like it would be more realistic.
Just my thoughts. Thanks, Tyson
[Edited on 9-28-2007 by DwightKSchrute] [/quote]
Realisitcally you wouldn't take a minor league left-fielder and make him anything else than an OF or 1b. He would not be a super-sub utility player at the major league level. Those guys are usually middle infielders.
September 28, 2007 at 05:46PM View formatted
You are viewing the raw post code; this allows you to copy a message with BBCode formatting intact.
[quote][i]Originally posted by DwightKSchrute[/i]
Only allowing players one jump like that makes it really difficult to make a player a good utility player. I've been working at making this guy a guy who can back me up all around. He's kind of like a Ryan Freel or anything super utility guy in MLB.
http://www.simdynasty.com/player.jsp?player=nobody&mode=stats&id=2964826
I would be more likely to change ratings when a position switch occurs. For example, an A+ arm at 2b equals a C+ arm at SS and vice versa. Another example of similar skills would be Range at 1b and 3b which would be less than range at SS and 2b. A little bit of work to set up but seems like it would be more realistic.
Just my thoughts. Thanks, Tyson
[Edited on 9-28-2007 by DwightKSchrute] [/quote]
Realisitcally you wouldn't take a minor league left-fielder and make him anything else than an OF or 1b. He would not be a super-sub utility player at the major league level. Those guys are usually middle infielders.
lvnwrth
Point 1: There are guys who WOULD be changed if the sim were perfect. A few seasons back I had a seventeen-year old catcher with A velocity and B control. Yes, that guy would have been switched, too.
Point 2: I don't thnk Tyson is telling you that the player you reference wouldn't have been moved to the mound by a real ML team. What I hear him saying is that the sim can't process a change like that right now, and it's a major project to change it so it can.
While I agree that it would be nice to be able to move a kid to the best position for his skill set, I'm also okay with Tyson's answer. I've hammered pretty hard on some issues in the past, to the point of really aggravating TL, but after almost four years here, I DO KNOW that he does listen, tries to be responsive, and the changes he makes he believes are best for the game.
SD is kind of like the US tax code: The longer it goes through evolutionary change, the harder it gets to go back and make fundamental changes. If/when TL can address this issue without damaging the fundamental structure, I am confident he will do that. In the meantime, I'm happy to play with what we've got.
Old Army axiom: The greatest obstacle to good is perfect. SD is good - very good. We shouldn't break it trying to make it perfect.
September 28, 2007 at 05:52PM View BBCode
Originally posted by tworoosters
Originally posted by Admin
Pitchers can't be convert to players or vice versa.
Tyson
Why not ?
Are you trying to tell me [url=http://www.simdynasty.com/player.jsp?mode=player&playername=nobody&id=3663720]this guy[/url] wouldn't have been moved to Left Field the second after he was drafted ?
Given that the only worthwhile improves a pitcher to hitter, or reverse, would receive in the minors would be positional why not let it happen.
Point 1: There are guys who WOULD be changed if the sim were perfect. A few seasons back I had a seventeen-year old catcher with A velocity and B control. Yes, that guy would have been switched, too.
Point 2: I don't thnk Tyson is telling you that the player you reference wouldn't have been moved to the mound by a real ML team. What I hear him saying is that the sim can't process a change like that right now, and it's a major project to change it so it can.
While I agree that it would be nice to be able to move a kid to the best position for his skill set, I'm also okay with Tyson's answer. I've hammered pretty hard on some issues in the past, to the point of really aggravating TL, but after almost four years here, I DO KNOW that he does listen, tries to be responsive, and the changes he makes he believes are best for the game.
SD is kind of like the US tax code: The longer it goes through evolutionary change, the harder it gets to go back and make fundamental changes. If/when TL can address this issue without damaging the fundamental structure, I am confident he will do that. In the meantime, I'm happy to play with what we've got.
Old Army axiom: The greatest obstacle to good is perfect. SD is good - very good. We shouldn't break it trying to make it perfect.
lvnwrth
I think your last line is a good idea. While I have always argued that the all-or-nothing approach was the wrong way to do it, I do think that kids making position switches give up something in the attempt. Instead of taking extra hacks in the batting cage, they're learning how to make a DP pivot, or pick up a fly ball of the bat, or how to play caroms off the wall, or how to block pitches in the dirt. So yes, there should be some price to pay and I think what you suggest is perfectly reasonable.
September 28, 2007 at 05:56PM View BBCode
Originally posted by Admin
I've changed how position changes in the minor leagues work. This code should be complete soon, just ironing out the bug I found.
There is now a 4th minor league improvement chance for each game. This is for position changers. Abe will randomly select a player in your minor leagues for this IC, out of any guys who have a position selected in the Minor leagues. So if you only have 1 guy, he will be selected every game.
Abe will then give him an IC for position changing.
I didn't put any restrictions in here about how many players you have to pick. I figure if you want to focus on 1 guy, that's your choice. Do you disagree?
The other thought is to limit this to guys with 4 CPs or less, so you have to give up something to make it happen.
Tyson
I think your last line is a good idea. While I have always argued that the all-or-nothing approach was the wrong way to do it, I do think that kids making position switches give up something in the attempt. Instead of taking extra hacks in the batting cage, they're learning how to make a DP pivot, or pick up a fly ball of the bat, or how to play caroms off the wall, or how to block pitches in the dirt. So yes, there should be some price to pay and I think what you suggest is perfectly reasonable.
tworoosters
For example:
Will a 3B trying to change to 1B convert more chances than a LF trying to convert to SS ?
September 28, 2007 at 09:08PM View BBCode
Will conversion rates differ depending on the change being made ?For example:
Will a 3B trying to change to 1B convert more chances than a LF trying to convert to SS ?