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FuriousGiorge
What was so bizarre about the feature was that it was essentially a puff piece. All of Guillen's "eccentricities" (aka being an immature, self-centered asshole) are treated as absolutely hilarious, and a mark of his fine character. Because, of course, Guillen is the manager of the defending World Champions. Well I'll make this statement right now - as the White Sox come back to the pack over the next couple of seasons, and Guillen's immature act begins to divide the clubhouse and alienate his veterans, there won't be any more puff pieces about how clever he is to throw his own players to the wolves when they're slumping or talk about himself like he's the cleverest man in the universe. I guess I wish I could say that I won't have a huge feeling of schadenfreude as Guillen gets slowly devoured by the same jackals who right now are laughing at his nonsense, but I'm not that big.
[Edited on 2-9-2006 by FuriousGiorge]
Ozzie the mouth
February 09, 2006 at 07:03PM View BBCode
Did anyone see the incredibly bizarre feature on Real Sports about Ozzie Guillen? Some of the highlights: beating his chest about the coaching job he did with the 05 White Sox by taking Joe Torre and Phil Jackson down a notch (to paraphrase, "those guys won because they had great players", leaving unsaid how Ozzie feels about the guys who suit up for him on a nightly basis). The well-documented tendency for Guillen to attack his players in the press when they aren't performing the way he expects them to. Talking about how he was the first person to bring joy to the population of Venezuela - if you knew nothing about the country, after listening to Guillen you'd think it was a barren, postapocalyptic wasteland.What was so bizarre about the feature was that it was essentially a puff piece. All of Guillen's "eccentricities" (aka being an immature, self-centered asshole) are treated as absolutely hilarious, and a mark of his fine character. Because, of course, Guillen is the manager of the defending World Champions. Well I'll make this statement right now - as the White Sox come back to the pack over the next couple of seasons, and Guillen's immature act begins to divide the clubhouse and alienate his veterans, there won't be any more puff pieces about how clever he is to throw his own players to the wolves when they're slumping or talk about himself like he's the cleverest man in the universe. I guess I wish I could say that I won't have a huge feeling of schadenfreude as Guillen gets slowly devoured by the same jackals who right now are laughing at his nonsense, but I'm not that big.
[Edited on 2-9-2006 by FuriousGiorge]
max_fischer
February 09, 2006 at 08:10PM View BBCode
I can't stand Guillen. I used to believe that he needed to learn to think before he spoke, but now I fear that he IS saying what he is thinking, all the damn time.
BrutusKhan
However, he's got big balls, and backs it up. On a bad team, a coach like that can be destructive, but when you are bad, who cares? Anybody really believe McClendon was the reason the Pirates lost? Let him puff his chest. Why does it bother you if he takes credit? You aren't even a Sox fan. If the Sox return to the pack, it will be because of injuries, just like any other team in the league.
Doug
February 10, 2006 at 06:50PM View BBCode
I'm not surprised to find myself on the opposite view of George. Ozzie was running his mouth when the Sox collapsed in '04 after Hunter ran over our catcher. He didn't publicly call out his players for not retaliating. Every player in that clubhouse knows where they stand with Ozzie long before he goes public with anything, and they all love him for it. If the Sox come back to the pack, it will be because the players, not the manager, didn't win. I'm not the biggest fan of every move Ozzie makes, but I know at the end of the day, he's good enough. Who else hands Jenks the ball down the stretch & makes him his closer with no track record to go off? I can see not liking what he said, but I'm not ready to add that emotion on top of some forecast.However, he's got big balls, and backs it up. On a bad team, a coach like that can be destructive, but when you are bad, who cares? Anybody really believe McClendon was the reason the Pirates lost? Let him puff his chest. Why does it bother you if he takes credit? You aren't even a Sox fan. If the Sox return to the pack, it will be because of injuries, just like any other team in the league.
Doug
FuriousGiorge
I'm not saying the Sox will return to the pack because Ozzie's a loudmouthed jerkass. I'm saying that when the Sox return to the pack, due to injuries or (more likely) because they're not an overwhelmingly talented ballclub, Ozzie will be clearly seen for what he actually is, a blustery loudmouth with a penchant for publicly berating the men who he depends on for his livelyhood. And the reason I care is because I personally can't stand Ozzie Guillen - he was an awful player with an extremely exaggerated view of his own importance, and as a manager he's a caricature of every terrible boss you could ever have the misfortune of knowing, an overbearing, disrespectful blowhard who is lightning-quick to deflect criticism onto the shoulders of those below him. Believe me, his players don't love him - they play for him because that's their job, but everyone in that clubhouse knows that they are a more talented and, more importantly, smarter ballplayer than Ozzie ever was (who was without a doubt one of the dumbest players I've ever seen), and it's real hard to respect someone who is both an egomaniac AND demonstrably worse than you on the field.
[Edited on 2-10-2006 by FuriousGiorge]
February 10, 2006 at 07:18PM View BBCode
Originally posted by BrutusKhan
However, he's got big balls, and backs it up. On a bad team, a coach like that can be destructive, but when you are bad, who cares? Anybody really believe McClendon was the reason the Pirates lost? Let him puff his chest. Why does it bother you if he takes credit? You aren't even a Sox fan. If the Sox return to the pack, it will be because of injuries, just like any other team in the league.
I'm not saying the Sox will return to the pack because Ozzie's a loudmouthed jerkass. I'm saying that when the Sox return to the pack, due to injuries or (more likely) because they're not an overwhelmingly talented ballclub, Ozzie will be clearly seen for what he actually is, a blustery loudmouth with a penchant for publicly berating the men who he depends on for his livelyhood. And the reason I care is because I personally can't stand Ozzie Guillen - he was an awful player with an extremely exaggerated view of his own importance, and as a manager he's a caricature of every terrible boss you could ever have the misfortune of knowing, an overbearing, disrespectful blowhard who is lightning-quick to deflect criticism onto the shoulders of those below him. Believe me, his players don't love him - they play for him because that's their job, but everyone in that clubhouse knows that they are a more talented and, more importantly, smarter ballplayer than Ozzie ever was (who was without a doubt one of the dumbest players I've ever seen), and it's real hard to respect someone who is both an egomaniac AND demonstrably worse than you on the field.
[Edited on 2-10-2006 by FuriousGiorge]
FuriousGiorge
February 10, 2006 at 08:21PM View BBCode
Damn him. Somehow I always knew my closeted, self-loathing homosexuality could never compete with his outed, flamboyant homosexuality. It's why Liberace got all the tastiest pieces, and Rock Hudson couldn't buy a date with anything above a 3.
BrutusKhan
I live in Chicago & have connections, and usually hear things ahead of the media(like that Ron Artest was a total pyscho even prior to the trade). On the Sox, Willie Harris is good friends with a good friend of mine. All I've heard from guys I know inside the organization is the players love Ozzie. I will agree if they turn into a losing team, an aggressive style coach(kind of like a Mike Ditka in his lashing outs), will only further help a bad team implode. But, by that time, who cares? If the Sox are well below .500, I don't care who is the manager, and what he says. But, I work for auto dealers for years, and often we'd give players, agents, coaches, VP's, etc free demo's to drive. Eventually, you develop friends and hear things, and I've only heard good about Ozzie from inside the clubhouse. Now, whether he's making sense or not publicly, I can't defend, but also don't care.
Doug
February 10, 2006 at 09:21PM View BBCode
You've got a great wit & well sharpened tongue, but you have the facts wrong. He took the heat off the team by having it on him, and he knew that. The White Sox have the best pitching staff in baseball, and that's enough to lead most pacts. Every season you play about 1400 innings as a team, give or take 50 w/ rain outs, extra innings, games lost at home, etc. The White Sox will have 5 pitchers eat up about 1000 of those with ERA's averaging under 4.0. That puts you above .500 by itself. You can make a case that one or 2 teams if healthy may have a better staff, but all 5 of the White Sox guy's are healthy innings loggers, and more probable than the rest of the league to stay healthy.I live in Chicago & have connections, and usually hear things ahead of the media(like that Ron Artest was a total pyscho even prior to the trade). On the Sox, Willie Harris is good friends with a good friend of mine. All I've heard from guys I know inside the organization is the players love Ozzie. I will agree if they turn into a losing team, an aggressive style coach(kind of like a Mike Ditka in his lashing outs), will only further help a bad team implode. But, by that time, who cares? If the Sox are well below .500, I don't care who is the manager, and what he says. But, I work for auto dealers for years, and often we'd give players, agents, coaches, VP's, etc free demo's to drive. Eventually, you develop friends and hear things, and I've only heard good about Ozzie from inside the clubhouse. Now, whether he's making sense or not publicly, I can't defend, but also don't care.
Doug
rkinslow19
I think the Indians will win the division.
February 13, 2006 at 12:44PM View BBCode
Ozzie is a jerk, and the ChiSox don't have the bullpen or OBP men to repeat. Caveat: If Thome can return to form, they'll be very dangerous. But, it sure was fun watching them blow through the postseason last year, that was some great starting pitching.I think the Indians will win the division.
youngallstar
He was right about Phil and Joe. If a manager cant win with Jordan/Pippen;shaq/Kobe and a 500 billion dollar budget in New York than you probably shouldnt be managing any team, ever. Period
Personally I think he is refreshing and good for the game.
[Edited on 2-14-2006 by youngallstar]
February 14, 2006 at 07:24AM View BBCode
Ozzie doesnt care what YOU think and he speaks his mind, he can do that right now without fear of media backlash, mainly because he took a team with virtually no superstars and just won the World Series.He was right about Phil and Joe. If a manager cant win with Jordan/Pippen;shaq/Kobe and a 500 billion dollar budget in New York than you probably shouldnt be managing any team, ever. Period
Personally I think he is refreshing and good for the game.
[Edited on 2-14-2006 by youngallstar]
skierdude44
Sure Jackson had Jordan and Pippen, and Shaq and Kobe, but his true genius was in the Triangle - and being able to control so many conflicting personalities for so long. The Yankee payroll ballooned after Torre won the championships. It was still relatively high during the championship run, but many of the cornerstones of that team were home grown products, not high priced mercenaries like today. And like Jackson, Torre employed a solid strategy to win games. During a time where most teams in the AL sat back and waited for the three run homer, Torre used traditionally National League strategies, like the hit and run, to jump start his team and win games. And like Jackson, Torre has been able to get conflicting personalities to mesh well enough to win multiple championships, and deal with quite possibly the most over-bearing, hot head owner in sports history.
Yeah, you need good players to win a championship. That's a given. Not even the greatest coach could take you, me, Foliage, and Ignite and mold us into a championship team. But a good coach/manager can be the difference between a good team and a championship team.
February 14, 2006 at 12:46PM View BBCode
Originally posted by youngallstar
He was right about Phil and Joe. If a manager cant win with Jordan/Pippen;shaq/Kobe and a 500 billion dollar budget in New York than you probably shouldnt be managing any team, ever. Period
Personally I think he is refreshing and good for the game.
[Edited on 2-14-2006 by youngallstar]
Sure Jackson had Jordan and Pippen, and Shaq and Kobe, but his true genius was in the Triangle - and being able to control so many conflicting personalities for so long. The Yankee payroll ballooned after Torre won the championships. It was still relatively high during the championship run, but many of the cornerstones of that team were home grown products, not high priced mercenaries like today. And like Jackson, Torre employed a solid strategy to win games. During a time where most teams in the AL sat back and waited for the three run homer, Torre used traditionally National League strategies, like the hit and run, to jump start his team and win games. And like Jackson, Torre has been able to get conflicting personalities to mesh well enough to win multiple championships, and deal with quite possibly the most over-bearing, hot head owner in sports history.
Yeah, you need good players to win a championship. That's a given. Not even the greatest coach could take you, me, Foliage, and Ignite and mold us into a championship team. But a good coach/manager can be the difference between a good team and a championship team.
rkinslow19
I guarantee that you put Jackson with my Warriors, and no matter how well they run the triangle, they're not going anywhere.
I'm not a fan of Ozzie, but he just won a world series, so that gives him the right to run his mouth 24 hours a day for the next 5 years if he feels like it.
[Edited on 2-14-2006 by rkinslow19]
February 14, 2006 at 01:00PM View BBCode
It's sad that coaches are becoming babysitters. As good as the triangle was, it really didn't take much coaching talent (in terms of x's and o's) to win with with Jordan, Pippen, and Rodman.I guarantee that you put Jackson with my Warriors, and no matter how well they run the triangle, they're not going anywhere.
I'm not a fan of Ozzie, but he just won a world series, so that gives him the right to run his mouth 24 hours a day for the next 5 years if he feels like it.
[Edited on 2-14-2006 by rkinslow19]
Faceman
and I really doubt the offense mattered that much with those players anyway. . what did they run out of that set for like 30% of the time when they weren't improvising / fast breaking , etc.
February 14, 2006 at 05:51PM View BBCode
you can thank Tex Winters, not PhilJax, for the triangle offense.and I really doubt the offense mattered that much with those players anyway. . what did they run out of that set for like 30% of the time when they weren't improvising / fast breaking , etc.
nextyearcubs
Guillen did a masterful job last season, and this is coming from a Cubs fan. He was aided by a roster that had been few dominant personalities, they had mostly role type players who did their job without a whole lot of flash but were effective nonetheless. They had few serious injuries, especially on the mound, and several key players had breakout or career type years.
More than likely, they will fall back to earth with an above .500 year, and stay in the race for the most of the season, if not make the playoffs. Expecting another 11-1 run to the championship is a tall order. Everything fell right for them last year, I predicted with much disgust (as a Cub fan, of course) that it was their year in mid-May after seeing them beat the Cubs at Wrigley.
BTW, a rookie closer dominating the WS isn't unprecedented. In 2002, Percival got the saves for ANA, but the highest leverage relief innings were pitched by a 20 year old with 5 2/3 regular season innings.
February 14, 2006 at 09:19PM View formatted
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It takes a good coach to turn players into champions though... Sure Jackson was lucky to fall into a great situation with the Bulls, but its not like he took over when they had already won a championship or two, a la Barry Switzer. He took them to another level and kept them focused on staying on top, which is tough to do with all the money, endorsements, and other distractions out there. Other than Jordan and Pippen, the Bulls roster had totally turned over in the two years between three-peats.
Guillen did a masterful job last season, and this is coming from a Cubs fan. He was aided by a roster that had been few dominant personalities, they had mostly role type players who did their job without a whole lot of flash but were effective nonetheless. They had few serious injuries, especially on the mound, and several key players had breakout or career type years.
More than likely, they will fall back to earth with an above .500 year, and stay in the race for the most of the season, if not make the playoffs. Expecting another 11-1 run to the championship is a tall order. Everything fell right for them last year, I predicted with much disgust (as a Cub fan, of course) that it was their year in mid-May after seeing them beat the Cubs at Wrigley.
BTW, a rookie closer dominating the WS isn't unprecedented. In 2002, Percival got the saves for ANA, but the highest leverage relief innings were pitched by a 20 year old with 5 2/3 regular season innings.
FuriousGiorge
[Edited on 6-22-2006 by FuriousGiorge]
June 22, 2006 at 02:35AM View BBCode
The White Sox are better than I expected, at least so far. Ozzie, however? [url=http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2494491]Still a piece of shit[/url]. And, apparently, a Madonna fan.[Edited on 6-22-2006 by FuriousGiorge]
rkinslow19
ESPN was earlier billing it as a homophobic word. what a joke.
June 22, 2006 at 03:03AM View BBCode
mariotti IS a fagESPN was earlier billing it as a homophobic word. what a joke.
FuriousGiorge
(And yes, I hate being on the same side as Jay Mariotti. He deserves a punch in the balls. If Ozzie had simply called him a fucking piece of shit and stopped there, I would have been totally fine with it - in fact, my opinion of Ozzie would have gone up one iota, to a total of one iota.)
June 22, 2006 at 03:38AM View BBCode
Uh...you don't think the word "fag" is homophobic?(And yes, I hate being on the same side as Jay Mariotti. He deserves a punch in the balls. If Ozzie had simply called him a fucking piece of shit and stopped there, I would have been totally fine with it - in fact, my opinion of Ozzie would have gone up one iota, to a total of one iota.)
rkinslow19
Yet another case of the media inflating a story by using buzzwords
June 22, 2006 at 04:11AM View BBCode
we could battle about the exact meaning of "homophobic", which can mean both fear of homosexuals, and prejudice against homosexuals, but I contend that common use of the suffix phobia is understood to mean "fear of"Yet another case of the media inflating a story by using buzzwords
sycophantman
What's annoying is how Guillen uses the crutch of "in my country" all the damn time. You aren't fucking Yakoff Smirnoff dammit, I don't give a shit how crazy your motherland is. You've been in America for years now, owe your fame and fortune to this land, and are an actual American citizen now. I think you should have a grasp on these things after the decades you've been here...
June 22, 2006 at 10:08AM View BBCode
Living near Chicago and reading all the newspapers, I get a steady stream of Guillens nonsense. Honestly, I'm not really all too offended by Ozzies latest outburst, as I suspect most baseball players feel pretty much the same way as Guillen and use the word fag to describe any man who even bothers to shave his own back hair.What's annoying is how Guillen uses the crutch of "in my country" all the damn time. You aren't fucking Yakoff Smirnoff dammit, I don't give a shit how crazy your motherland is. You've been in America for years now, owe your fame and fortune to this land, and are an actual American citizen now. I think you should have a grasp on these things after the decades you've been here...
max_fischer
No, you're 100% wrong. Guillen is a loose cannon who does serious damage to his organization every few weeks just by doing interviews. Now he's stepped it up by using a term that is, by its very definition, homophobic. It's a derogatory term based on sexual orientation. Of course it's offensive, especailly when used in anger in a testosterone-laced environment such as a baseball clubhouse.
Also, why should Guillen be allowed to abuse the media like that? Sportswriters have a job to do, and the good ones are critical sometimes. If anyone lacks "courage" here it's Guillen and those who are defending him.
June 22, 2006 at 10:36AM View BBCode
Originally posted by rkinslow19
we could battle about the exact meaning of "homophobic", which can mean both fear of homosexuals, and prejudice against homosexuals, but I contend that common use of the suffix phobia is understood to mean "fear of"
Yet another case of the media inflating a story by using buzzwords
No, you're 100% wrong. Guillen is a loose cannon who does serious damage to his organization every few weeks just by doing interviews. Now he's stepped it up by using a term that is, by its very definition, homophobic. It's a derogatory term based on sexual orientation. Of course it's offensive, especailly when used in anger in a testosterone-laced environment such as a baseball clubhouse.
Also, why should Guillen be allowed to abuse the media like that? Sportswriters have a job to do, and the good ones are critical sometimes. If anyone lacks "courage" here it's Guillen and those who are defending him.
FuriousGiorge
June 22, 2006 at 02:22PM View BBCode
If this had been the N word, Ozzie Guillen would no longer be the manager of the White Sox this morning.
folifan19
June 22, 2006 at 02:33PM View BBCode
Guillen's "offense" is equal to that of John Rocker, and he should receive a similar punishment.
FuriousGiorge
June 22, 2006 at 03:10PM View BBCode
Suspended, without pay, for 14 games? Seems a wee bit excessive, but okay.
whiskybear
You have a college education? Unbelievable. Max is dead-on. Do I even need to mention that displaying such patently homophobic behavior could be taken as a sign of Ozzie's own insecurity---and, it follows, fear?
Here's a good one: [url=http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/baseball/mlb/wires/06/20/2010.ap.bba.white.sox.ejections.0098/]Ozzie and David Riske get ejected after Riske beans Chris Duncan---in the seventh inning of a game the White Sox won 20-6[/url].
June 22, 2006 at 04:39PM View BBCode
Originally posted by rkinslow19
mariotti IS a fag
ESPN was earlier billing it as a homophobic word. what a joke.
Originally posted by rkinslow19
we could battle about the exact meaning of "homophobic", which can mean both fear of homosexuals, and prejudice against homosexuals, but I contend that common use of the suffix phobia is understood to mean "fear of"
Yet another case of the media inflating a story by using buzzwords
You have a college education? Unbelievable. Max is dead-on. Do I even need to mention that displaying such patently homophobic behavior could be taken as a sign of Ozzie's own insecurity---and, it follows, fear?
Here's a good one: [url=http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/baseball/mlb/wires/06/20/2010.ap.bba.white.sox.ejections.0098/]Ozzie and David Riske get ejected after Riske beans Chris Duncan---in the seventh inning of a game the White Sox won 20-6[/url].