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bstock
Is this the case? If so, how much of an impact does it have? Enough to be a case against tanking? I've been playing for about four (real) years now, and have never known about this. I thought it was an optional-feature that individual leagues could use.
Mentoring Question
July 23, 2016 at 12:43AM View BBCode
Saw this while perusing the game guide for something totally unrelated:
If your team wins the game and the team you beat is ahead of you in the standings, your mentor values for that game will get a slight bump across the board, depending on how many games ahead of you the other team is. This gives you an incentive to try to beat teams that are better than you, especially teams that are really far ahead of you in the standings.
Is this the case? If so, how much of an impact does it have? Enough to be a case against tanking? I've been playing for about four (real) years now, and have never known about this. I thought it was an optional-feature that individual leagues could use.
ccox
July 24, 2016 at 01:39AM View BBCode
From the game guide:
Winning Percentage Modifier
Some leagues utilize this option, which modifies how many ICs a player earns based on the winning percentage of the team. Note that most leagues do not use this and that Dynasty and Trial leagues do not use this option.
Beanballs
This is something totally different, the WPM is an anti tanking rule that increases and decreases major league IC conversions in the offseason only.
It is a great rule that most leagues (along with variable development) should use, we use it in the CPBL and LAL, it helps hedge against the boom/bust cycles.
As far as the OP's question, I have seen a bump on my rebuilding teams when we win against a top team, I have seen a C+ mentoring score bump to B-.
So my guess is maybe those teams get a 5-8 points increase in their mentoring score, but that is calculated at the end of each game...
July 24, 2016 at 01:48AM View BBCode
Originally posted by ccox
From the game guide:
Winning Percentage Modifier
Some leagues utilize this option, which modifies how many ICs a player earns based on the winning percentage of the team. Note that most leagues do not use this and that Dynasty and Trial leagues do not use this option.
This is something totally different, the WPM is an anti tanking rule that increases and decreases major league IC conversions in the offseason only.
It is a great rule that most leagues (along with variable development) should use, we use it in the CPBL and LAL, it helps hedge against the boom/bust cycles.
As far as the OP's question, I have seen a bump on my rebuilding teams when we win against a top team, I have seen a C+ mentoring score bump to B-.
So my guess is maybe those teams get a 5-8 points increase in their mentoring score, but that is calculated at the end of each game...
paulcaraccio
Cox's quote is from the section on the Win Percentage Modifier. That is actually one of the best sticky bombs available.
Sticky bombs are anti-tank devices from Saving Private Ryan, i'm so clever
July 24, 2016 at 01:56AM View formatted
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I just looked through some box scores, and based on this quick sampling it appears to boost the mentoring score by about a grade (like from C to C+). I don't think it deters tanking, because you actually have to be behind in the standings to take advantage of it, and besides, you can get solid mentor grades without winning a game all year.
Cox's quote is from the section on the Win Percentage Modifier. That is actually one of the best sticky bombs available.
Sticky bombs are anti-tank devices from Saving Private Ryan, i'm so clever
Beanballs
Yep, it not only penalizes losing, but the great part about it is that it actually encourages and rewards winning, a novel concept.
You have to think a little, make some moves to become competive, otherwise you are FUBAR!
[Edited on 7-24-2016 by Beanballs]
July 24, 2016 at 02:04AM View BBCode
Originally posted by paulcaraccio
That is actually one of the best sticky bombs available.
Sticky bombs are anti-tank devices from Saving Private Ryan, i'm so clever
Yep, it not only penalizes losing, but the great part about it is that it actually encourages and rewards winning, a novel concept.
You have to think a little, make some moves to become competive, otherwise you are FUBAR!
[Edited on 7-24-2016 by Beanballs]
ccox
In full disclosure, I only have 4 sub-28 hitters and one sub-28 SP. Nearly all other major mentors are red.
July 24, 2016 at 02:21AM View BBCode
I took over a team in Dynasty, shifted into a complete rebuild a consequemtly have lost at least 10 games in a row. In the last few games, both my SP and batter mentor scores have been solid B.In full disclosure, I only have 4 sub-28 hitters and one sub-28 SP. Nearly all other major mentors are red.
ballmark
Personally, not a fan. It throws the baby out with the bath water.
July 24, 2016 at 02:46AM View BBCode
My experience with the WPM is that it also penalizes legitimately rebuilding teams by prolonging their rebuild by at least a season, and robs promising players of deserving IC conversions so that they never actually reach their full potential.Personally, not a fan. It throws the baby out with the bath water.
ccox
July 24, 2016 at 03:00AM View BBCode
WPM sounds like a good way to ensure teams tilt toward mediocrity. But I get the reasoning.
paulcaraccio
July 24, 2016 at 03:11AM View BBCode
I'd like to see the WPM be tweakable by league, or if it was just a little more lenient. I think the cutoff should be more like 65 wins instead of 75.
WillyD
Mark, I think the point of the WPM is that you're not supposed to go into full rebuild. Sure, sell off a few players for a good trade offer, and maybe be a slightly under .500 team for a few seasons, but don't allow yourself to ever become really bad.
The formula likely should be tweaked a bit though, if bad teams can't dig their way out of a full rebuild.
July 24, 2016 at 02:11PM View BBCode
Originally posted by ballmark
My experience with the WPM is that it also penalizes legitimately rebuilding teams by prolonging their rebuild by at least a season, and robs promising players of deserving IC conversions so that they never actually reach their full potential.
Personally, not a fan. It throws the baby out with the bath water.
Mark, I think the point of the WPM is that you're not supposed to go into full rebuild. Sure, sell off a few players for a good trade offer, and maybe be a slightly under .500 team for a few seasons, but don't allow yourself to ever become really bad.
The formula likely should be tweaked a bit though, if bad teams can't dig their way out of a full rebuild.
paulcaraccio
i think it's somewhat plausible that a promising player doesn't reach his full potential after spending his formative years in a hopeless environment. you probably pick up bad habits/attitudes on a wholly uncompetitive team.
The WPM certainly makes rebuilding harder if your team is truly awful...but it probably should be more challenging to turn that ship around than just watching your team lose for a few years.
I'll "pivot" on my earlier opinion on the cutoff point, I think it's fine where it is. At 75, you're still pretty much ok unless your win total falls into the 40s and 50s. If the cutoff was 65, you'd have to be so bad to be affected, it would be almost pointless.
Of course I can see why a lot of people don't like it, but I think it should be in more than 5 leagues.
July 24, 2016 at 05:29PM View BBCode
How do you tell the difference between tanking and a "legitimate" rebuild? Sometimes it's obviously tanking, like if you're attempting 700 steals, but if you trade away all your good players and semi-intentionally lose 110 games for 5 years in a row...which side does that fall on? Case could be made for either.i think it's somewhat plausible that a promising player doesn't reach his full potential after spending his formative years in a hopeless environment. you probably pick up bad habits/attitudes on a wholly uncompetitive team.
The WPM certainly makes rebuilding harder if your team is truly awful...but it probably should be more challenging to turn that ship around than just watching your team lose for a few years.
I'll "pivot" on my earlier opinion on the cutoff point, I think it's fine where it is. At 75, you're still pretty much ok unless your win total falls into the 40s and 50s. If the cutoff was 65, you'd have to be so bad to be affected, it would be almost pointless.
Of course I can see why a lot of people don't like it, but I think it should be in more than 5 leagues.
ballmark
So 75 wins is nearly unattainable for a rebuilding team. Ever. That's practically .500 ball and a rebuilding team is lucky to play .400 baseball.
Bill, I get your point about the WPM preventing full rebuilds and my current team-building strategy is always looking 5-10 years down the road, but if a guy is coming in to a league where the previous owner just used and abused the roster in a championship run, selling off every bit of the farm and running veterans into retirement, that WPM is going to hurt.
I'm not sure how ubiquitous tanking is on the site - and generally you can spot a tanker, because they'll be the team with C+ starters in rotation and/or lineup (one clue, anyway) - but if it's a problem, then a draft lottery or a wheel and other anti-tanking measures are more useful in my mind than the WPM.
If the Win % came down a bit ... I might feel differently. As it is, I'm stickin' to my story of the baby and the bathwater.
July 24, 2016 at 11:01PM View BBCode
There are 54 series played every season. On a rebuilding team, I'm generally lucky to win one game each series. There are a few where the team will one a pair, and even the occasional series the team sweeps, but those few variances in average are more than offset by the times the team is swept by one of the other superior teams.So 75 wins is nearly unattainable for a rebuilding team. Ever. That's practically .500 ball and a rebuilding team is lucky to play .400 baseball.
Bill, I get your point about the WPM preventing full rebuilds and my current team-building strategy is always looking 5-10 years down the road, but if a guy is coming in to a league where the previous owner just used and abused the roster in a championship run, selling off every bit of the farm and running veterans into retirement, that WPM is going to hurt.
I'm not sure how ubiquitous tanking is on the site - and generally you can spot a tanker, because they'll be the team with C+ starters in rotation and/or lineup (one clue, anyway) - but if it's a problem, then a draft lottery or a wheel and other anti-tanking measures are more useful in my mind than the WPM.
If the Win % came down a bit ... I might feel differently. As it is, I'm stickin' to my story of the baby and the bathwater.
paulcaraccio
lottery is fun, but in most cases the worst records have the most chances, so it doesn't really disincentivize losing.
75 wins is just the starting point for the WPM. if you're at like 72 wins, you won't even notice the effect. If you're down in the mid 50s or below, then yeah, it can hurt. but you've got options. you can leave your younger players in the minors (none of the WPM leagues are 20-CP leagues, so there's room) or try to trade and get better.
but, if you're taking over a hopeless roster in a WPM league and you don't view it as an invigorating challenge, i can see how it's unfair. it might be nice if it could be disabled for a new owner for the first 2 seasons.
July 25, 2016 at 06:57AM View BBCode
the wheel is definitely the best, it's perfect, really. it's the one and only reason that the one and only league i would consider joining going forward is Billy Williams (well that or a 3 GPD salary league).lottery is fun, but in most cases the worst records have the most chances, so it doesn't really disincentivize losing.
75 wins is just the starting point for the WPM. if you're at like 72 wins, you won't even notice the effect. If you're down in the mid 50s or below, then yeah, it can hurt. but you've got options. you can leave your younger players in the minors (none of the WPM leagues are 20-CP leagues, so there's room) or try to trade and get better.
but, if you're taking over a hopeless roster in a WPM league and you don't view it as an invigorating challenge, i can see how it's unfair. it might be nice if it could be disabled for a new owner for the first 2 seasons.
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