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dirtdevil
the elephant in the room, of course, is PED use. everyone will have their own opinion on how that issues plays into their 'ballot'. my own thinking has evolved a bit over time. the way I decided to deal with it is this: we know many people who were using. we also know that there are many others out there who didn't get caught, and we know some who were never officially caught but everyone more or less accepts their use as fact (i'm looking at you now, barry). we also can be reasonable sure that mlb was at the very least actively trying not to be aware of what was going on at the time. if we know that someone was using and I think they would have been in anyway, based on their work prior to that use, I'm going to vote for them. if we have people that there has always been rumours around but we haven't any proof (*cough* mike piazza *cough*) and they're good enough, i'll vote for them too. if there are people who look like they probably used, but there has never been any real evidence produced (hello, mr bagwell), i'll vote for them if they're good enough. if we have people who everyone is more or less certain never used (just grab a seat over there Mssrs Griffey and McGriff), they get extra credit because their clean accomplishments would have look just that much better against clean competition. BUT, if we have some people who's entire case for the hall rests on the fruits of their PED use (I see you trying to hide in the corner, mark and sammy), then they don't get a vote. it's clunky, no question. but it's what I'm comfortable with. so....
here's my 10-person list (in no particular order)
Bonds- he was already a mortal lock before he started using.
Raines- the 2nd best leadoff man of all-time. criminal he's not in yet.
McGriff- the 2nd best hitter of the era that had no whiff about him. horribly underrated because of the PED pinball #s.
Trammell- I've gone back and forth on him a few times. but he was the best hitting SS of his generation and this is his last year.
Hoffman- 600 saves are 600 saves.
Piazza- I think he used. but I can't prove it, and there's no question the numbers are there. best hitting catcher ever.
Clemens- see Bonds, Barry
Martinez- I hate the DH argument. it's nonsense. had he been an iron-gloved 3B, he'd be a first ballot guy. DH is a position. deal with it.
Griffey- if I have to explain this, you're on the wrong website.
Bagwell- see Piazza, Mike
Eckstein- the King of Scrappy White Guy.
the just missed list
Kent
Walker
Sheffield
Trammell
Schilling
Smith
the didn't vote for on purpose list
McGuire
Sosa
the very early 2016 hof ballot thread
November 18, 2015 at 06:05PM View BBCode
it's the off season and there's no baseball news. for some reason that got me thinking about who's eligible for the hof this year. (here's the [url=http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/hof_2016.shtml]baseball reference ballot link[/url])the elephant in the room, of course, is PED use. everyone will have their own opinion on how that issues plays into their 'ballot'. my own thinking has evolved a bit over time. the way I decided to deal with it is this: we know many people who were using. we also know that there are many others out there who didn't get caught, and we know some who were never officially caught but everyone more or less accepts their use as fact (i'm looking at you now, barry). we also can be reasonable sure that mlb was at the very least actively trying not to be aware of what was going on at the time. if we know that someone was using and I think they would have been in anyway, based on their work prior to that use, I'm going to vote for them. if we have people that there has always been rumours around but we haven't any proof (*cough* mike piazza *cough*) and they're good enough, i'll vote for them too. if there are people who look like they probably used, but there has never been any real evidence produced (hello, mr bagwell), i'll vote for them if they're good enough. if we have people who everyone is more or less certain never used (just grab a seat over there Mssrs Griffey and McGriff), they get extra credit because their clean accomplishments would have look just that much better against clean competition. BUT, if we have some people who's entire case for the hall rests on the fruits of their PED use (I see you trying to hide in the corner, mark and sammy), then they don't get a vote. it's clunky, no question. but it's what I'm comfortable with. so....
here's my 10-person list (in no particular order)
Bonds- he was already a mortal lock before he started using.
Raines- the 2nd best leadoff man of all-time. criminal he's not in yet.
McGriff- the 2nd best hitter of the era that had no whiff about him. horribly underrated because of the PED pinball #s.
Trammell- I've gone back and forth on him a few times. but he was the best hitting SS of his generation and this is his last year.
Hoffman- 600 saves are 600 saves.
Piazza- I think he used. but I can't prove it, and there's no question the numbers are there. best hitting catcher ever.
Clemens- see Bonds, Barry
Martinez- I hate the DH argument. it's nonsense. had he been an iron-gloved 3B, he'd be a first ballot guy. DH is a position. deal with it.
Griffey- if I have to explain this, you're on the wrong website.
Bagwell- see Piazza, Mike
Eckstein- the King of Scrappy White Guy.
the just missed list
Kent
Walker
Sheffield
Trammell
Schilling
Smith
the didn't vote for on purpose list
McGuire
Sosa
tworoosters
November 19, 2015 at 05:24AM View BBCode
I'm assuming the Eckstein vote is some sort of bizarre cosmic joke ??
dirtdevil
November 19, 2015 at 01:39PM View BBCode
(he's the 11th guy on a 10-man ballot. so, yes, joke.)
tworoosters
My List - based on the order listed in BR
Piazza
Bagwell
Raines
Martinez
Mussina
Kent
Walker
Griffey
Hoffman
I only found 9 guys Hall worthy.
I don't buy the argument that had Edgar played 3B he'd have posted the same numbers he did as a DH, he'd have missed more time and his negative fielding would've dragged down his overall value. That said I still think his numbers are enough, just barely though, and I can understand those that exclude him. Once you put Edgar on your ballot though there is, to me, no excuse for excluding Larry Walker. Walker was everything Edgar was as a hitter plus a GG defender and an MVP and played only 57 less games than Edgar.
The argument that Trammell was the best SS of his generation is, to me, a bit over stated since he played at the same time as Cal Ripken and Ozzie Smith. Trammell was a very good player and apparently a really nice guy but his overall numbers just don't cut it for me and there is nothing in his numbers to indicate that he was an exceptional defensive talent so he's out.
Kent gets in because he was a dominant offensive player who played in the middle of the infield and Mussina is in because the game has changed to the point where 250 wins is the new 300 and Moose averaged 17 wins a year for 18 years and was in the Cy Young conversation in at least half of those 18 years.
I'm still not quite ready to give the nod to Schilling because he's just a reprehensible human being so I'm going to make him wait . Lee Smith is also very close but his BB/K ratio, ERA and WHIP are all a little below what I want out of a reliever, he's closer than a lot of people realize though. McGriff, in my mind, wasn't any better than say Carlos Delgado and Carlos was one and done on the HOF ballot
November 19, 2015 at 04:12PM View BBCode
I take a slightly different approach, my feeling is if you definitely a user then no vote so I've excluded Bonds and Clemens. I waffle back and forth on the "well they would have made it even if they hadn't used" but for now I'm sticking with my criteria.My List - based on the order listed in BR
Piazza
Bagwell
Raines
Martinez
Mussina
Kent
Walker
Griffey
Hoffman
I only found 9 guys Hall worthy.
I don't buy the argument that had Edgar played 3B he'd have posted the same numbers he did as a DH, he'd have missed more time and his negative fielding would've dragged down his overall value. That said I still think his numbers are enough, just barely though, and I can understand those that exclude him. Once you put Edgar on your ballot though there is, to me, no excuse for excluding Larry Walker. Walker was everything Edgar was as a hitter plus a GG defender and an MVP and played only 57 less games than Edgar.
The argument that Trammell was the best SS of his generation is, to me, a bit over stated since he played at the same time as Cal Ripken and Ozzie Smith. Trammell was a very good player and apparently a really nice guy but his overall numbers just don't cut it for me and there is nothing in his numbers to indicate that he was an exceptional defensive talent so he's out.
Kent gets in because he was a dominant offensive player who played in the middle of the infield and Mussina is in because the game has changed to the point where 250 wins is the new 300 and Moose averaged 17 wins a year for 18 years and was in the Cy Young conversation in at least half of those 18 years.
I'm still not quite ready to give the nod to Schilling because he's just a reprehensible human being so I'm going to make him wait . Lee Smith is also very close but his BB/K ratio, ERA and WHIP are all a little below what I want out of a reliever, he's closer than a lot of people realize though. McGriff, in my mind, wasn't any better than say Carlos Delgado and Carlos was one and done on the HOF ballot
dirtdevil
November 19, 2015 at 05:17PM View BBCode
I think kent and walker should both be in. I'm on the fence with lee smith, but leaning towards in. I share your feelings on schilling. I like mussina as a pitcher, but I just can't go there with him. maybe i'll change my mind on him as on trammel, but for now I just don't feel like he makes the cut.
ballmark
[b]FIRST BALLOT VOTES[/b]
Ken Griffey. Duh.
Trevor Hoffman
[i]I like both Billy Wagner and Trevor Hoffman. Hoff had the more gaudy results but Wagner was actually a more dominant pitcher, I think. But Hoffman gets the nod.[/i]
[b]OTHER WORTHIES, IMHO[/b]
Mike Piazza
Roger Clemens
Barry Bonds
Alan Trammell
[i]sentimental vote, really. Ideally he'd be inducted alongside Lou Whitaker. I suspect neither will get in (Whitaker already ineligible), but if they could have been voted on as a tandem...first ballot?[/i]
Mike Mussina
Gary Sheffield
[i]Dude put up monumental numbers despite being outspoken and unhappy in nearly every situation in which he found himself. Second only to Bonds and Griffey in RBI.[/i]
Mark McGwire
Sammy Sosa
That's my 10 ... now, let's strike McGwire and Sosa for PED issues. Bonds and Clemens, despite heavy suspicion, must be given the benefit of the doubt for now.
+++
DD - You list Trammell both on your 10 and on your list of "Just Missed."
November 20, 2015 at 12:35AM View formatted
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Sure. I'll play. As far as the PED thing, let me start by assuming that everyone had the same chance to use, so for now we'll set that issue aside, but bring it back later.
[b]FIRST BALLOT VOTES[/b]
Ken Griffey. Duh.
Trevor Hoffman
[i]I like both Billy Wagner and Trevor Hoffman. Hoff had the more gaudy results but Wagner was actually a more dominant pitcher, I think. But Hoffman gets the nod.[/i]
[b]OTHER WORTHIES, IMHO[/b]
Mike Piazza
Roger Clemens
Barry Bonds
Alan Trammell
[i]sentimental vote, really. Ideally he'd be inducted alongside Lou Whitaker. I suspect neither will get in (Whitaker already ineligible), but if they could have been voted on as a tandem...first ballot?[/i]
Mike Mussina
Gary Sheffield
[i]Dude put up monumental numbers despite being outspoken and unhappy in nearly every situation in which he found himself. Second only to Bonds and Griffey in RBI.[/i]
Mark McGwire
Sammy Sosa
That's my 10 ... now, let's strike McGwire and Sosa for PED issues. Bonds and Clemens, despite heavy suspicion, must be given the benefit of the doubt for now.
+++
DD - You list Trammell both on your 10 and on your list of "Just Missed."
bobcat73
THE ONLY EASY GUYS FOR ME ON THE LIST ARE
Kent - screamed for testing while he was getting fat meatballs to smash because Bonds was a post child for excess. However he played second base, was clutch (thats a real thing), and had a cool mustache.
Griffey- truly a victim of the PED users. His greatness was very diminished by other players pumped up accomplishments.
McGriff - He suffers because some people think RBI's and being clutch are not important or "real". Those same guys can go polish the A's world series trophies from the 90's together. Add in the fact that leadoff guys started hitting 50 HR's a season and he looks less impressive. However you did not want him up with a running on second and your closer on the hill in a 1 run game.
Mussina - He was a real ACE and he was the ACE on staffs that had 3 Aces.
Raines - So everyone who is really smart about baseball can finally shut up about it.
Martinez - Best hitter in baseball for several years. 1995 MVP voters should have been kicked in the junk.
Wagner, Smith, Hoffman - these guys should be in and it's silly closers get short shift.
Hampton - should get in as a reminder to owners that they never should have agreed to guarantied contracts.
November 23, 2015 at 10:46PM View BBCode
I don't like the argument that someone would have gotten in based on prior results to the PED. Its farcical to say something like Bonds started using PED in 2000, what we know is in 2000 he started working with BALCO and got crazy with building mass. To say the dude was not using anything prior to going to SF is giving someone a huge amount of leeway.THE ONLY EASY GUYS FOR ME ON THE LIST ARE
Kent - screamed for testing while he was getting fat meatballs to smash because Bonds was a post child for excess. However he played second base, was clutch (thats a real thing), and had a cool mustache.
Griffey- truly a victim of the PED users. His greatness was very diminished by other players pumped up accomplishments.
McGriff - He suffers because some people think RBI's and being clutch are not important or "real". Those same guys can go polish the A's world series trophies from the 90's together. Add in the fact that leadoff guys started hitting 50 HR's a season and he looks less impressive. However you did not want him up with a running on second and your closer on the hill in a 1 run game.
Mussina - He was a real ACE and he was the ACE on staffs that had 3 Aces.
Raines - So everyone who is really smart about baseball can finally shut up about it.
Martinez - Best hitter in baseball for several years. 1995 MVP voters should have been kicked in the junk.
Wagner, Smith, Hoffman - these guys should be in and it's silly closers get short shift.
Hampton - should get in as a reminder to owners that they never should have agreed to guarantied contracts.
bobcat73
No thought in your mind based on Walkers injury patterns and home run spike seasons and what you saw while he played that he could have been using PED?
November 23, 2015 at 10:53PM View BBCode
Originally posted by tworoosters
I don't buy the argument that had Edgar played 3B he'd have posted the same numbers he did as a DH, he'd have missed more time and his negative fielding would've dragged down his overall value. That said I still think his numbers are enough, just barely though, and I can understand those that exclude him. Once you put Edgar on your ballot though there is, to me, no excuse for excluding Larry Walker. Walker was everything Edgar was as a hitter plus a GG defender and an MVP and played only 57 less games than Edgar.
No thought in your mind based on Walkers injury patterns and home run spike seasons and what you saw while he played that he could have been using PED?
tworoosters
None whatsoever, is it your assertion that Walker went on the juice to recover from his major injuries in '96 & 2000 ?
If so did he go off them in '98 & then get back on in '99 or did he start in '95 and get hurt as a result and then change his usage pattern ?
This is what I fucking hate about the steroid era is that everyone is tainted and I mean everyone.
Did Griffey start hitting the needle after '95 & what about that late career power surge when it looked like he was done in 2002 ?
Awfully suspicious, and Edgar ........c'mon can't even get to the park he's so broken down in '93 & '94 and then comes back and slugs .628 .......yeah like he wasn't using.
Witch hunts are for Republicans, not baseball fans.
November 24, 2015 at 03:27AM View BBCode
Originally posted by bobcat73
No thought in your mind based on Walkers injury patterns and home run spike seasons and what you saw while he played that he could have been using PED?
None whatsoever, is it your assertion that Walker went on the juice to recover from his major injuries in '96 & 2000 ?
If so did he go off them in '98 & then get back on in '99 or did he start in '95 and get hurt as a result and then change his usage pattern ?
This is what I fucking hate about the steroid era is that everyone is tainted and I mean everyone.
Did Griffey start hitting the needle after '95 & what about that late career power surge when it looked like he was done in 2002 ?
Awfully suspicious, and Edgar ........c'mon can't even get to the park he's so broken down in '93 & '94 and then comes back and slugs .628 .......yeah like he wasn't using.
Witch hunts are for Republicans, not baseball fans.
bobcat73
To say, we should not taint everyone is to not have watched baseball from 1980 thru now. Ryan Brawn was doping. Only him and 6 others guys were doping though...Since we have proof on those guys.
November 24, 2015 at 04:17PM View BBCode
My assertion is that common sense should be used. You watched these players, what we saw at the time can and should be more useful than the collection of stats that are left over. So if in the 90's you never thought, "Wow, Walker looks bigger in those Purple Pin Strips than he ever did in those Expos jersey." Then I guess you did not think that. I thought that and I thought playing in Coors really helped him.To say, we should not taint everyone is to not have watched baseball from 1980 thru now. Ryan Brawn was doping. Only him and 6 others guys were doping though...Since we have proof on those guys.
dirtdevil
yeah, like I said, I've been back and forth on him. he wasn't on my original list.
November 24, 2015 at 06:20PM View BBCode
Originally posted by ballmark
DD - You list Trammell both on your 10 and on your list of "Just Missed."
yeah, like I said, I've been back and forth on him. he wasn't on my original list.
dirtdevil
everyone looks bigger in purple pinstripes than they do in powder blue solids.
November 24, 2015 at 06:21PM View BBCode
Originally posted by bobcat73
My assertion is that common sense should be used. You watched these players, what we saw at the time can and should be more useful than the collection of stats that are left over. So if in the 90's you never thought, "Wow, Walker looks bigger in those Purple Pin Strips than he ever did in those Expos jersey." Then I guess you did not think that. I thought that and I thought playing in Coors really helped him.
everyone looks bigger in purple pinstripes than they do in powder blue solids.
bobcat73
Very true and I think, just off memory, I only saw him very early in his career while wearing those powder blues, so he could have been very young.
Ok regarding Walker...I thought Dante Bichette was putting up similar numbers as Walker and I recall a random slew of dudes would show up at Coors field jack 40 and sign huge contracts with other teams. Just Larry Walker played there a long time.. I guess maybe I take something away from Walkers Greatness because Todd Helton came in with greeatness right behind him, its possible I am doing that I guess.
November 24, 2015 at 06:54PM View BBCode
Originally posted by dirtdevil
Originally posted by bobcat73
My assertion is that common sense should be used. You watched these players, what we saw at the time can and should be more useful than the collection of stats that are left over. So if in the 90's you never thought, "Wow, Walker looks bigger in those Purple Pin Strips than he ever did in those Expos jersey." Then I guess you did not think that. I thought that and I thought playing in Coors really helped him.
everyone looks bigger in purple pinstripes than they do in powder blue solids.
Very true and I think, just off memory, I only saw him very early in his career while wearing those powder blues, so he could have been very young.
Ok regarding Walker...I thought Dante Bichette was putting up similar numbers as Walker and I recall a random slew of dudes would show up at Coors field jack 40 and sign huge contracts with other teams. Just Larry Walker played there a long time.. I guess maybe I take something away from Walkers Greatness because Todd Helton came in with greeatness right behind him, its possible I am doing that I guess.
folifan19
I think eventually the guys with the sexy numbers are going to get in. Might not be in my lifetime, but it is likely to happen, IMO.
December 02, 2015 at 06:35PM View BBCode
I am no fan of the roid boys, especially Bonds and Canseco, however, it is difficult to hold PED use or especially suspected PED use against these guys. I say this because, as was stated early on, the League was making a point of ignoring the subject. Probably because theyhad not declared it against the rules to use. Even though it is illegal to use un-prescribed drugs.I think eventually the guys with the sexy numbers are going to get in. Might not be in my lifetime, but it is likely to happen, IMO.
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