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tworoosters
The VSL draft list is up, this is a 24 team league, the pool features 44 OF, 41 P, 33 MI, 16 3B, 8 1B and those 6 future HOFers at catcher.
http://www.simdynasty.com/player.jsp?mode=player&playername=nobody&id=11711273
http://www.simdynasty.com/player.jsp?mode=player&playername=nobody&id=11711269
http://www.simdynasty.com/player.jsp?mode=player&playername=nobody&id=11711294
http://www.simdynasty.com/player.jsp?mode=player&playername=nobody&id=11711206
http://www.simdynasty.com/player.jsp?mode=player&playername=nobody&id=11711292
http://www.simdynasty.com/player.jsp?mode=player&playername=nobody&id=11711268
At least it's a system 3 league so you can take one of the teens and leave him in the minors for 6-7 years.
This draft is not an anomoly, the previous 5 years have featured a total of 36 draft worthy catchers and 172 OFers. Given that each major league team is required to have 2 catchers on it's major league roster and lets say 5 OFers that means that in 5 drafts the pool has provided 75% of the league's catching requirements and 143% of the OFers, not even taking into account that OFers can be created out of any other position in a relatively short time and there is no league requirement for a number of OFers
Catchers ?
November 01, 2015 at 07:03PM View BBCode
So we know that you need 5-7 years to convert a positional player to catcher in the minors which means drafting them is pretty much the only reasonable route to acquiring a catcher.The VSL draft list is up, this is a 24 team league, the pool features 44 OF, 41 P, 33 MI, 16 3B, 8 1B and those 6 future HOFers at catcher.
http://www.simdynasty.com/player.jsp?mode=player&playername=nobody&id=11711273
http://www.simdynasty.com/player.jsp?mode=player&playername=nobody&id=11711269
http://www.simdynasty.com/player.jsp?mode=player&playername=nobody&id=11711294
http://www.simdynasty.com/player.jsp?mode=player&playername=nobody&id=11711206
http://www.simdynasty.com/player.jsp?mode=player&playername=nobody&id=11711292
http://www.simdynasty.com/player.jsp?mode=player&playername=nobody&id=11711268
At least it's a system 3 league so you can take one of the teens and leave him in the minors for 6-7 years.
This draft is not an anomoly, the previous 5 years have featured a total of 36 draft worthy catchers and 172 OFers. Given that each major league team is required to have 2 catchers on it's major league roster and lets say 5 OFers that means that in 5 drafts the pool has provided 75% of the league's catching requirements and 143% of the OFers, not even taking into account that OFers can be created out of any other position in a relatively short time and there is no league requirement for a number of OFers
bahstonwedsawks
LOL, classic.
November 01, 2015 at 07:49PM View BBCode
Originally posted by tworoosters
and those 6 future HOFers at catcher.
LOL, classic.
Frunobulax
Having said this, it's usually possible to convert a player to C. It depends on the range, but I had a lot of players reach 50% in 4 years (if I start at OS18 or OS19 and have no other position change in the minors). If I can't draft such a guy then I'll trade for a young player that I project to reach 90 arm or better.
November 02, 2015 at 03:28PM View BBCode
I kinda like the fact that catchers are a scarce resource. Depending on the league setting they have as much value as a SP.Having said this, it's usually possible to convert a player to C. It depends on the range, but I had a lot of players reach 50% in 4 years (if I start at OS18 or OS19 and have no other position change in the minors). If I can't draft such a guy then I'll trade for a young player that I project to reach 90 arm or better.
Bonnie_Brae
Yeah, but you usually want a catcher to have an arm weighting. If a player has good range as a teen prospect, they usually don't have a great arm. Since they need a good arm to play catcher, and good range to convert, we can assume that they'd be a sexy fielding prospect.
Why in the eff would you take a guy that should play SS or CF and convert them to catcher, where they won't play as many games?
November 02, 2015 at 11:45PM View BBCode
Originally posted by Frunobulax
I kinda like the fact that catchers are a scarce resource. Depending on the league setting they have as much value as a SP.
Having said this, it's usually possible to convert a player to C. It depends on the range, but I had a lot of players reach 50% in 4 years (if I start at OS18 or OS19 and have no other position change in the minors). If I can't draft such a guy then I'll trade for a young player that I project to reach 90 arm or better.
Yeah, but you usually want a catcher to have an arm weighting. If a player has good range as a teen prospect, they usually don't have a great arm. Since they need a good arm to play catcher, and good range to convert, we can assume that they'd be a sexy fielding prospect.
Why in the eff would you take a guy that should play SS or CF and convert them to catcher, where they won't play as many games?
bahstonwedsawks
November 03, 2015 at 07:08PM View BBCode
Outside of solid A overall pitchers, solid catchers are likely the most valuable commodity. I try to hoard as much of each position as possible... kind of like cornering the market of a particular resource in Settlers of Catan. :)
Mongrel
November 03, 2015 at 08:06PM View BBCode
If I draft an 18 year old with a solid arm, and weak range, I almost always convert him to C. I think they are way undervalued. Usually by OS 23 they are near 70%, if he's a stud hitter, or I'm not on a competing team, I'll tough it out and finish his conversion in the majors. If he figures to be a backup, I'll leave him down to finish his conversion.
Bonnie_Brae
November 03, 2015 at 08:06PM View BBCode
Hoarding a resource is different than wasting a resource.
Frunobulax
I never said the prospect would need a *good* range. Having a range that is not terrible just helps a bit in the conversion process.
Ideal are players that project to something like range 55-65, arm 90 or better. That's not exactly a SS candidate, and you can convert them in a decent number of years. If you find a guy with bad range (say he starts at D- range, C arm) then it will take longer to convert, and you'll probably have to suffer through 1-2 years with a catcher that couldn't catch my grandmother stealing because he'll be not much better than 50% when you call him up.
November 03, 2015 at 10:01PM View BBCode
Originally posted by Bonnie_Brae
Yeah, but you usually want a catcher to have an arm weighting. If a player has good range as a teen prospect, they usually don't have a great arm. Since they need a good arm to play catcher, and good range to convert, we can assume that they'd be a sexy fielding prospect.
Why in the eff would you take a guy that should play SS or CF and convert them to catcher, where they won't play as many games?
I never said the prospect would need a *good* range. Having a range that is not terrible just helps a bit in the conversion process.
Ideal are players that project to something like range 55-65, arm 90 or better. That's not exactly a SS candidate, and you can convert them in a decent number of years. If you find a guy with bad range (say he starts at D- range, C arm) then it will take longer to convert, and you'll probably have to suffer through 1-2 years with a catcher that couldn't catch my grandmother stealing because he'll be not much better than 50% when you call him up.
Bonnie_Brae
You guys may covet catchers, but just move pieces around and find one. Training for that many seasons is the result of bad cost analysis.
[Edited on 11-4-2015 by Bonnie_Brae]
November 03, 2015 at 10:45PM View BBCode
As a guy that loves having a ton of utility trained players on my rosters, I'm just not willing to allocate five seasons of training on one guy to become a catcher. I'd rather have numerous multi position prospects and flip second or third rounders for vet catchers.You guys may covet catchers, but just move pieces around and find one. Training for that many seasons is the result of bad cost analysis.
[Edited on 11-4-2015 by Bonnie_Brae]
bahstonwedsawks
If you're talking about position changes in the minors (i.e. position training), then your comments seem completely backwards to me. I love utility guys*, too, but I usually just take the slight conversion hit in the majors and play them out of position for the games it takes to get there. You can't do that with catchers. They have to be 50% before getting to the majors in most leagues to even qualify to play at catcher... and catchers can be fully converted (or very near it) before they get promoted. With that in mind, I believe the most important use of position change in the minors is to convert to a catcher.
*my 7 non-catcher regulars average 2.85 positions in which they're proficient (20 total). http://simdynasty.com/roster.jsp?hand=r&teamid=2439
November 04, 2015 at 04:19AM View BBCode
Originally posted by Bonnie_Brae
As a guy that loves having a ton of utility trained players on my rosters, I'm just not willing to allocate five seasons of training on one guy to become a catcher. I'd rather have numerous multi position prospects and flip second or third rounders for vet catchers.
You guys may covet catchers, but just move pieces around and find one. Training for that many seasons is the result of bad cost analysis.
[Edited on 11-4-2015 by Bonnie_Brae]
If you're talking about position changes in the minors (i.e. position training), then your comments seem completely backwards to me. I love utility guys*, too, but I usually just take the slight conversion hit in the majors and play them out of position for the games it takes to get there. You can't do that with catchers. They have to be 50% before getting to the majors in most leagues to even qualify to play at catcher... and catchers can be fully converted (or very near it) before they get promoted. With that in mind, I believe the most important use of position change in the minors is to convert to a catcher.
*my 7 non-catcher regulars average 2.85 positions in which they're proficient (20 total). http://simdynasty.com/roster.jsp?hand=r&teamid=2439
Mongrel
I might have missed something, but range doesn't make a player convert any faster. I prefer lower range for a catcher conversion because higher range may slow down or limit his arm development.
I totally disagree. In the [url=http://www.simdynasty.com/rankings.jsp?leagueid=4479&position=2&mode=ratings]24 team GFL[/url] (don't know if the link works), there are only 30 Catchers who are B+ or better overall. There are 11 A- or better and 2 A overall. Out of those 30 there are only 24 with A or better arm strength.
Eight teams make the postseason, and it's pretty common that four more are still in the race going into the final weeks of September.
I'm just about at the low point of a rebuild, I figure I'm about two years from aiming to be a .500 team. I currently have [url=http://www.simdynasty.com/player.jsp?playername=nobody&mode=stats&id=11557771]Joe Hargis[/url], a fourth round pick converted to Catcher. I don't figure him to be the starter when I am ready to compete. He will be solid defensively, and not an embarrasment with the bat, but really with the pool of catcher in this league, he could most likely be a starting catcher somewhere for his entire career.
So picking up a good starting catcher for a second or third round pick would be a real stupid sell for whoever took the trade.
And my fourth round pick, something that is usually just considered worthless, has given me a guy I'm pretty sure I could turn into a easy second right now, and quite possibly more. I'd consider that a pretty good return on my investment.
I can and do convert position players in the major leagues, many of those conversions happen much quicker in the majors with only a small hit in ICs. it can't be done for a catcher without time in the minors.
[Edited on 11-4-2015 by Mongrel]
November 04, 2015 at 01:34PM View BBCode
Originally posted by Frunobulax
Having said this, it's usually possible to convert a player to C. It depends on the range, but I had a lot of players reach 50% in 4 years (if I start at OS18 or OS19 and have no other position change in the minors)
I might have missed something, but range doesn't make a player convert any faster. I prefer lower range for a catcher conversion because higher range may slow down or limit his arm development.
Originally posted by Bonnie_Brae
As a guy that loves having a ton of utility trained players on my rosters, I'm just not willing to allocate five seasons of training on one guy to become a catcher. I'd rather have numerous multi position prospects and flip second or third rounders for vet catchers.
You guys may covet catchers, but just move pieces around and find one. Training for that many seasons is the result of bad cost analysis.
[Edited on 11-4-2015 by Bonnie_Brae]
I totally disagree. In the [url=http://www.simdynasty.com/rankings.jsp?leagueid=4479&position=2&mode=ratings]24 team GFL[/url] (don't know if the link works), there are only 30 Catchers who are B+ or better overall. There are 11 A- or better and 2 A overall. Out of those 30 there are only 24 with A or better arm strength.
Eight teams make the postseason, and it's pretty common that four more are still in the race going into the final weeks of September.
I'm just about at the low point of a rebuild, I figure I'm about two years from aiming to be a .500 team. I currently have [url=http://www.simdynasty.com/player.jsp?playername=nobody&mode=stats&id=11557771]Joe Hargis[/url], a fourth round pick converted to Catcher. I don't figure him to be the starter when I am ready to compete. He will be solid defensively, and not an embarrasment with the bat, but really with the pool of catcher in this league, he could most likely be a starting catcher somewhere for his entire career.
So picking up a good starting catcher for a second or third round pick would be a real stupid sell for whoever took the trade.
And my fourth round pick, something that is usually just considered worthless, has given me a guy I'm pretty sure I could turn into a easy second right now, and quite possibly more. I'd consider that a pretty good return on my investment.
I can and do convert position players in the major leagues, many of those conversions happen much quicker in the majors with only a small hit in ICs. it can't be done for a catcher without time in the minors.
[Edited on 11-4-2015 by Mongrel]
Frunobulax
You must play in weird leagues to get a sensible catcher for a 2nd or 3rd rounder :)
A lot of teams have a pretty bad player at catcher, which really hurts them. Assuming that a catcher plays around 10 seasons, and assuming that you manage to draft a backup catcher (or trade for one), then you have to spend about half of your position training time on catcher conversions. The other half suffices to move a few outfielders to 2B and possibly 1B, which is the conversion that will cost you a few wins if you do it in the majors.
Learning additional infield positions or moving an infielder to the outfield can be easily done in the majors, without affecting playoff chances.
November 04, 2015 at 02:23PM View BBCode
Originally posted by Bonnie_Brae
As a guy that loves having a ton of utility trained players on my rosters, I'm just not willing to allocate five seasons of training on one guy to become a catcher. I'd rather have numerous multi position prospects and flip second or third rounders for vet catchers.
You guys may covet catchers, but just move pieces around and find one. Training for that many seasons is the result of bad cost analysis.
You must play in weird leagues to get a sensible catcher for a 2nd or 3rd rounder :)
A lot of teams have a pretty bad player at catcher, which really hurts them. Assuming that a catcher plays around 10 seasons, and assuming that you manage to draft a backup catcher (or trade for one), then you have to spend about half of your position training time on catcher conversions. The other half suffices to move a few outfielders to 2B and possibly 1B, which is the conversion that will cost you a few wins if you do it in the majors.
Learning additional infield positions or moving an infielder to the outfield can be easily done in the majors, without affecting playoff chances.
bahstonwedsawks
November 04, 2015 at 04:09PM View BBCode
These threads are a great example of why I love this game so much. Different strategies, different approaches, studs vs a group of good players, weighing pros and cons of present vs future, etc. This game is awesome.
Mongrel
Sort of, the problem with this thread is we're all discussing part of the game that most of probably agree is god-awful. We could all dream that some day there may be more sensible and realistic ways to assign positions to our prospects, but ... that's never going to happen.
November 04, 2015 at 04:25PM View BBCode
Originally posted by bahstonwedsawks
These threads are a great example of why I love this game so much. Different strategies, different approaches, studs vs a group of good players, weighing pros and cons of present vs future, etc. This game is awesome.
Sort of, the problem with this thread is we're all discussing part of the game that most of probably agree is god-awful. We could all dream that some day there may be more sensible and realistic ways to assign positions to our prospects, but ... that's never going to happen.
Bonnie_Brae
I only play in 3 non salary leagues, so you guys face different situations than I do in half my leagues.
However, I just find it odd to allocate resources for 5-6 seasons to one player conversion.
I like to train players across various positions and then ease them in as primary backups unless they are elite at a young age. They get slightly less ICs than an everyday starter, but they don't take the out of position hit, so it's probably close to neutral.
[Edited on 11-4-2015 by Bonnie_Brae]
November 04, 2015 at 06:30PM View BBCode
Oh fine, I'll convert some teens in various leagues next draft.I only play in 3 non salary leagues, so you guys face different situations than I do in half my leagues.
However, I just find it odd to allocate resources for 5-6 seasons to one player conversion.
I like to train players across various positions and then ease them in as primary backups unless they are elite at a young age. They get slightly less ICs than an everyday starter, but they don't take the out of position hit, so it's probably close to neutral.
[Edited on 11-4-2015 by Bonnie_Brae]
dirtdevil
I like to train players across various positions and then ease them in as primary backups unless they are elite at a young age. They get slightly less ICs than an everyday starter, but they don't take the out of position hit, so it's probably close to neutral. [/quote]
it's also a great strategy for adding additional flexibility in high injury leagues.
November 04, 2015 at 07:10PM View formatted
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[quote][i]Originally posted by Bonnie_Brae[/i]
I like to train players across various positions and then ease them in as primary backups unless they are elite at a young age. They get slightly less ICs than an everyday starter, but they don't take the out of position hit, so it's probably close to neutral. [/quote]
it's also a great strategy for adding additional flexibility in high injury leagues.
Bonnie_Brae
Yeah, and I like funky rules leagues. I'm quitting the one straight league I am in (MML) because it's boring.
November 04, 2015 at 07:35PM View BBCode
Originally posted by dirtdevil
Originally posted by Bonnie_Brae
I like to train players across various positions and then ease them in as primary backups unless they are elite at a young age. They get slightly less ICs than an everyday starter, but they don't take the out of position hit, so it's probably close to neutral.
it's also a great strategy for adding additional flexibility in high injury leagues.
Yeah, and I like funky rules leagues. I'm quitting the one straight league I am in (MML) because it's boring.
Mongrel
I was probably exaggerating a bit saying I convert every good candidate. Like Frubo said you need to bring up one catcher on average in a 10 year span. So there's a chance you acquire a good prospect who already is a catcher. Also the 'ideal' candidate with bad range and a solid change at getting A or better in arm isn't exactly the most common thing either. So I'd say really it's probably one conversion in a 15-20 year period that I've done.
So during those years your conversions are locked up on the Catcher, but it still leaves things normal the rest of the time.
I like training multiple positions as well, but since every non-catcher conversion can be done at the major league level, I don't miss out on it too much. You've got to be smart about conversions. If you want to convert an OF to IF, make sure to convert to CF first.
Also due to the silliness of development, I often have prospects who I figure will eventually be somewhere in the infield, but usually when they are called up they haven't developed the defense fully, so those guys will often begin in the outfield and then move to the infield as they mature, They penalty is less when you wait untill they are older (OS 26 to OS 29) as the mentoring isn't as much of a factor and they aren't developing much at that point anyway.
November 05, 2015 at 04:19PM View BBCode
Originally posted by Bonnie_Brae
Oh fine, I'll convert some teens in various leagues next draft.
I only play in 3 non salary leagues, so you guys face different situations than I do in half my leagues.
However, I just find it odd to allocate resources for 5-6 seasons to one player conversion.
I like to train players across various positions and then ease them in as primary backups unless they are elite at a young age. They get slightly less ICs than an everyday starter, but they don't take the out of position hit, so it's probably close to neutral.
[Edited on 11-4-2015 by Bonnie_Brae]
I was probably exaggerating a bit saying I convert every good candidate. Like Frubo said you need to bring up one catcher on average in a 10 year span. So there's a chance you acquire a good prospect who already is a catcher. Also the 'ideal' candidate with bad range and a solid change at getting A or better in arm isn't exactly the most common thing either. So I'd say really it's probably one conversion in a 15-20 year period that I've done.
So during those years your conversions are locked up on the Catcher, but it still leaves things normal the rest of the time.
I like training multiple positions as well, but since every non-catcher conversion can be done at the major league level, I don't miss out on it too much. You've got to be smart about conversions. If you want to convert an OF to IF, make sure to convert to CF first.
Also due to the silliness of development, I often have prospects who I figure will eventually be somewhere in the infield, but usually when they are called up they haven't developed the defense fully, so those guys will often begin in the outfield and then move to the infield as they mature, They penalty is less when you wait untill they are older (OS 26 to OS 29) as the mentoring isn't as much of a factor and they aren't developing much at that point anyway.
WillyD
Actually higher range does affect conversions to catcher. The position you convert from, and age, also affect it.
November 05, 2015 at 07:41PM View BBCode
Originally posted by Mongrel
Originally posted by Frunobulax
Having said this, it's usually possible to convert a player to C. It depends on the range, but I had a lot of players reach 50% in 4 years (if I start at OS18 or OS19 and have no other position change in the minors)
I might have missed something, but range doesn't make a player convert any faster. I prefer lower range for a catcher conversion because higher range may slow down or limit his arm development.
Actually higher range does affect conversions to catcher. The position you convert from, and age, also affect it.
Hamilton2
November 06, 2015 at 01:24AM View BBCode
Willy, I think that the position "from" is the same on all catchers, isn't it? The higher range, the better the conversion rate though, for sure.
skycoyote
http://www.simdynasty.com/posgrid.html
November 06, 2015 at 02:50AM View BBCode
The position "from" is the same for all, VH. Here's the chart:http://www.simdynasty.com/posgrid.html
WillyD
Sorry, I wrote that real quick while at work. I should have clarified that when they play in the majors, they improve quicker if they are for example, a 2nd baseman (from my experience), or 1st baseman (as Tim told mentioned before).
November 06, 2015 at 03:24AM View BBCode
Originally posted by Hamilton2
Willy, I think that the position "from" is the same on all catchers, isn't it? The higher range, the better the conversion rate though, for sure.
Sorry, I wrote that real quick while at work. I should have clarified that when they play in the majors, they improve quicker if they are for example, a 2nd baseman (from my experience), or 1st baseman (as Tim told mentioned before).
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