 |
View Old Forum Thread
Old Forum Index » Football Beta Testing » Football Beta Test Discussion » Introducing the Shotgun Draw
Admin
The Shotgun Draw is essentially a middle run play, except the offense lines up in a shotgun. The QB will take the snap and drop back, delay a moment as if getting ready to pass, then either hand off to the HB or, on rare occasion, keep the ball himself and run with the HB lead blocking.
This play will require an OL that is good at both pass block and run block. It starts out in pass block mode, with the goal to allow the defenders in just enough to put them in a poor position to run block, then switch to run block mode to open the hole.
If the OL does not do its job, the defense may still create "pressure". This is not true pressure as there is no chance of a sack or forcing an early pass but it does increase the chance of the play failing. The Pressure line will be shown because at this point it still looks like a passing play.
The play is especially effective against a Sam-Will Blitz as the linebackers are out of position to stop the run. When the play fails, though, it has more potential to be stuffed than a standard middle run.
With the Shotgun Draw in place, the defense will still automatically switch to a nickel formation but will no longer automatically switch from a run defense to a pass defense.
I am still tweaking and adjusting this, of course.
Chris
(Admin note: Originally I had called this a Shotgun Trap, as I had been looking at both trap and draw plays, hence Rich's post below this one.)
[Edited on 3-30-2014 by Admin]
Introducing the Shotgun Draw
March 28, 2014 at 06:54PM View BBCode
I have added the Shogun Draw to the list of available play groups.The Shotgun Draw is essentially a middle run play, except the offense lines up in a shotgun. The QB will take the snap and drop back, delay a moment as if getting ready to pass, then either hand off to the HB or, on rare occasion, keep the ball himself and run with the HB lead blocking.
This play will require an OL that is good at both pass block and run block. It starts out in pass block mode, with the goal to allow the defenders in just enough to put them in a poor position to run block, then switch to run block mode to open the hole.
If the OL does not do its job, the defense may still create "pressure". This is not true pressure as there is no chance of a sack or forcing an early pass but it does increase the chance of the play failing. The Pressure line will be shown because at this point it still looks like a passing play.
The play is especially effective against a Sam-Will Blitz as the linebackers are out of position to stop the run. When the play fails, though, it has more potential to be stuffed than a standard middle run.
With the Shotgun Draw in place, the defense will still automatically switch to a nickel formation but will no longer automatically switch from a run defense to a pass defense.
I am still tweaking and adjusting this, of course.
Chris
(Admin note: Originally I had called this a Shotgun Trap, as I had been looking at both trap and draw plays, hence Rich's post below this one.)
[Edited on 3-30-2014 by Admin]
RichNYC1
March 29, 2014 at 10:07PM View BBCode
Love this though I would call it Shotgun Draw. If I understand this correctly the OL will be more important. Will quality DTīs also make a difference against this play?
Admin
Chris
March 29, 2014 at 11:16PM View BBCode
Thanks, I will check it out. Yes, it should be called a draw, I was looking at both traps and draws when I created it.Chris
RichNYC1
March 29, 2014 at 11:17PM View BBCode
The Manage Strategies page allows you to copy the new 6 play page but it is not loading correctly when you load the new strategy (to Yellow, Green Zone 2-min, whatever). Itīs only loading 4 play fields and itīs skipping rows. See attachedRichNYC1 has attached this image:
Admin
Chris
March 30, 2014 at 12:36AM View BBCode
Both the management page and the name of the play are fixed.Chris
RichNYC1
Its working now
[Edited on 10/04/06 by RichNYC1]
March 30, 2014 at 01:47AM View BBCode
Once you put in the End Run from that set it can be the Trap. Add the Option Play and you have the Wildcat. That ought to be fun trying to defend. ;)Its working now
[Edited on 10/04/06 by RichNYC1]
Admin
I really didn't want to put this much work into the "old" engine but I am coming to realize that to do the new engine right will take at least 4-6 months and I can't just leave the sim with no decent upgrades for 6 months.
Chris
March 30, 2014 at 05:12AM View BBCode
I am actually considering adding the option, I figured out a way to do it that may not be that difficult. Working on adding a 3-4 now, and thought of a way to allow coaches to use Advanced Strategies to change strategies or possibly just formations based on the offense's formation. (This could get tricky as more formations are added). I would also like to add a special short yardage defense on this run as well.I really didn't want to put this much work into the "old" engine but I am coming to realize that to do the new engine right will take at least 4-6 months and I can't just leave the sim with no decent upgrades for 6 months.
Chris
RichNYC1
What I am hoping for on defense is for the ability to get into the right formation first, and second to adjust into MAN/SHORT ZONE or RUN DEFENSE if a team is running a lot out of shotgun on 3rd and short-medium or get into DEEP ZONE if they are throwing it long in that spot. I hope to see that it can adjust when it sees tendencies, which will help in stopping them better. Right now the Keyed-In is not working at all. If anything the offense is making more plays when the defense keys in, at least thats what I see.
Also, defense is generally making stops mostly due to creating minus plays, sacks, strip sacks and penalties.Thats fine and I think correct, but frankly, I think sacks, and specifically strip sacks, are way to prevalent right now. We have multiple teams getting 100 sacks in Beta and 70-90 sacks in the pay leagues. Thats too many. Of course if it wasnt happening like that scores would all be in the 40īs and 50īs because it is still very hard to do anything vs the short pass teams and run first teams (who seem to all be averaging 4.4+ per attempt). A great QB or RB should be able to get his yards, no doubt, but the right defensive scheme should be able to stop the average player when the tendency is very high and right now thats not working, or at least I dont think it is.
On the plus side 3rd and long is clearly tougher now and I see a lot more passes defensed. Fumbles also seem to be up. It is clearly tougher to drive a long field dinking and dunking due to these adjustments and I think thats a great thing. Field position is and should be a priority to a good defense, just like in real life.
March 30, 2014 at 03:29PM View BBCode
The 2 additional play call options, for me at least, can cut both ways. Sometimes itīs nice to have additional available plays, but already I see it can really decrease the amount of times you use a play that may be working well. You just dont get back to it as often, at least so far. I also seems the engine limits running Shotgun Draw. I have it in there on a high % setting and I have not seen it run nearly as much as I think I should be calling it. Itīs only a couple of games so weīll see.What I am hoping for on defense is for the ability to get into the right formation first, and second to adjust into MAN/SHORT ZONE or RUN DEFENSE if a team is running a lot out of shotgun on 3rd and short-medium or get into DEEP ZONE if they are throwing it long in that spot. I hope to see that it can adjust when it sees tendencies, which will help in stopping them better. Right now the Keyed-In is not working at all. If anything the offense is making more plays when the defense keys in, at least thats what I see.
Also, defense is generally making stops mostly due to creating minus plays, sacks, strip sacks and penalties.Thats fine and I think correct, but frankly, I think sacks, and specifically strip sacks, are way to prevalent right now. We have multiple teams getting 100 sacks in Beta and 70-90 sacks in the pay leagues. Thats too many. Of course if it wasnt happening like that scores would all be in the 40īs and 50īs because it is still very hard to do anything vs the short pass teams and run first teams (who seem to all be averaging 4.4+ per attempt). A great QB or RB should be able to get his yards, no doubt, but the right defensive scheme should be able to stop the average player when the tendency is very high and right now thats not working, or at least I dont think it is.
On the plus side 3rd and long is clearly tougher now and I see a lot more passes defensed. Fumbles also seem to be up. It is clearly tougher to drive a long field dinking and dunking due to these adjustments and I think thats a great thing. Field position is and should be a priority to a good defense, just like in real life.
shbo2
The sack total is a bit high in all of my pay leagues also but on the flip side of that team also attempt throws over 20 yards at a much higher rate than in the NFL so a higher sack rate is to be expected imo. I really haven't noticed much of a drop off in success rate of long shotgun passes, especially vs man coverage.
March 30, 2014 at 04:51PM View BBCode
Originally posted by RichNYC1
Also, defense is generally making stops mostly due to creating minus plays, sacks, strip sacks and penalties.Thats fine and I think correct, but frankly, I think sacks, and specifically strip sacks, are way to prevalent right now. We have multiple teams getting 100 sacks in Beta and 70-90 sacks in the pay leagues. Thats too many. Of course if it wasnt happening like that scores would all be in the 40īs and 50īs because it is still very hard to do anything vs the short pass teams and run first teams (who seem to all be averaging 4.4+ per attempt). A great QB or RB should be able to get his yards, no doubt, but the right defensive scheme should be able to stop the average player when the tendency is very high and right now thats not working, or at least I dont think it is.
The sack total is a bit high in all of my pay leagues also but on the flip side of that team also attempt throws over 20 yards at a much higher rate than in the NFL so a higher sack rate is to be expected imo. I really haven't noticed much of a drop off in success rate of long shotgun passes, especially vs man coverage.
shbo2
I would love this also. I think the calculations for the success of a passing play is skewed a little too far to the ratings of the offensive players than the defensive players. I have noticed that while the overall completion % has dropped some, the top teams are still lighting it up. I'm in 4 pay leagues and in all of them my secondary is loaded with guys that have red letter in passcover, speed, & agility and I have seen no difference when I'm going up against really good passing rosters. On the flip side of this in 3/4 of my leagues I have a good passing offense that hasn't skipped a beat but I'm trying to develop a young QB that isn't that good yet this season and the difference in the production from my offense this season to last is quite noticeable.
I believe a stacked offensive passing roster should be highly successful but a stacked secondary should be a little more successful in slowing down that offense than it is now.
March 30, 2014 at 05:35PM View BBCode
Originally posted by RichNYC1
The 2 additional play call options, for me at least, can cut both ways. Sometimes itīs nice to have additional available plays, but already I see it can really decrease the amount of times you use a play that may be working well. You just dont get back to it as often, at least so far. I also seems the engine limits running Shotgun Draw. I have it in there on a high % setting and I have not seen it run nearly as much as I think I should be calling it. Itīs only a couple of games so weīll see.
What I am hoping for on defense is for the ability to get into the right formation first, and second to adjust into MAN/SHORT ZONE or RUN DEFENSE if a team is running a lot out of shotgun on 3rd and short-medium or get into DEEP ZONE if they are throwing it long in that spot. I hope to see that it can adjust when it sees tendencies, which will help in stopping them better. Right now the Keyed-In is not working at all. If anything the offense is making more plays when the defense keys in, at least thats what I see.
I would love this also. I think the calculations for the success of a passing play is skewed a little too far to the ratings of the offensive players than the defensive players. I have noticed that while the overall completion % has dropped some, the top teams are still lighting it up. I'm in 4 pay leagues and in all of them my secondary is loaded with guys that have red letter in passcover, speed, & agility and I have seen no difference when I'm going up against really good passing rosters. On the flip side of this in 3/4 of my leagues I have a good passing offense that hasn't skipped a beat but I'm trying to develop a young QB that isn't that good yet this season and the difference in the production from my offense this season to last is quite noticeable.
I believe a stacked offensive passing roster should be highly successful but a stacked secondary should be a little more successful in slowing down that offense than it is now.
mr1313
March 30, 2014 at 05:46PM View formatted
You are viewing the raw post code; this allows you to copy a message with BBCode formatting intact.
When will this be added to the pay leagues and are you working on adding tackles as a stat on the defensive side?
Admin
Chris
March 30, 2014 at 06:43PM View BBCode
These changes are all very new and need to be tested a bit before we can add them to the main sim. I am looking at tackles but not sure they will make it into this update batch.Chris
Closer
06:29. 0 0 CHI 3/8 CHI 22
3rd and 8 for the Force, they huddle and line up in a Shotgun; the Slingers line up in a 4-2-5 Nickel.
Malcolm Warren takes the snap and drops back into the pocket.
Malcolm Warren hands off to Justin Ostrowski.
Justin Ostrowski runs up the middle for a 4 yard gain.
[Edited on 3-31-2014 by Closer]
March 31, 2014 at 12:13AM View BBCode
Worked without a snag about a half a dozen times in my last game. 4.5.10.14.5 yds.06:29. 0 0 CHI 3/8 CHI 22
3rd and 8 for the Force, they huddle and line up in a Shotgun; the Slingers line up in a 4-2-5 Nickel.
Malcolm Warren takes the snap and drops back into the pocket.
Malcolm Warren hands off to Justin Ostrowski.
Justin Ostrowski runs up the middle for a 4 yard gain.
[Edited on 3-31-2014 by Closer]
Admin
3rd and 8, defense almost certainly had a prevent in which the draw would work well against.
I am tracking how it works against each defense type but it will need a bit of time to collect more data.
Chris
March 31, 2014 at 02:15AM View BBCode
Originally posted by Closer
Worked without a snag about a half a dozen times in my last game. 4.5.10.14.5 yds.
06:29. 0 0 CHI 3/8 CHI 22
3rd and 8 for the Force, they huddle and line up in a Shotgun; the Slingers line up in a 4-2-5 Nickel.
Malcolm Warren takes the snap and drops back into the pocket.
Malcolm Warren hands off to Justin Ostrowski.
Justin Ostrowski runs up the middle for a 4 yard gain.
[Edited on 3-31-2014 by Closer]
3rd and 8, defense almost certainly had a prevent in which the draw would work well against.
I am tracking how it works against each defense type but it will need a bit of time to collect more data.
Chris
RichNYC1
March 31, 2014 at 11:40PM View BBCode
It took me a couple of games to get my offense going after this change, but it is humming now. I think the Draw is a much better weapon against the blitz than the Screen. It doesnt produce as many long TDīs, but it seems to create more consistent positive yardage plays than the Screen, with itīs incompletions and negative plays. It also seems to set up the Long Shotgun Pass better. The Shotgun Set is probably going to be too easy now, but if we get some new defensive tools weīll figure it out. ;)
Fulla
2nd and 9 for the Barbarians, they huddle and line up in a Shotgun; the Leopards line up in a 4-2-5 Nickel.
Dana Slaton takes the snap and drops back into the pocket.
Slaton passes to Brad Schmiesing at the TB 31.
The ball is caught at the TB 31 by Brad Schmiesing.
Schmiesing is ruled out of bounds at the point of the catch.
Pass by Dana Slaton intended for Brad Schmiesing is incomplete.
3rd and 9 for the Barbarians, they huddle and line up in a Shotgun; the Leopards line up in a 4-2-5 Nickel.
Dana Slaton takes the snap and drops back into the pocket.
Slaton passes to Phil Thurman at the TB 33.
The ball is caught at the TB 33 by Phil Thurman.
Thurman is ruled out of bounds at the point of the catch.
Pass by Dana Slaton intended for Phil Thurman is incomplete.
Don Oates (DE, GB) is shaken up on the play; he will return soon.
April 01, 2014 at 02:22AM View BBCode
I haven't noticed this before but my shotgun formation is throwing sideline passes. Is this in error?2nd and 9 for the Barbarians, they huddle and line up in a Shotgun; the Leopards line up in a 4-2-5 Nickel.
Dana Slaton takes the snap and drops back into the pocket.
Slaton passes to Brad Schmiesing at the TB 31.
The ball is caught at the TB 31 by Brad Schmiesing.
Schmiesing is ruled out of bounds at the point of the catch.
Pass by Dana Slaton intended for Brad Schmiesing is incomplete.
3rd and 9 for the Barbarians, they huddle and line up in a Shotgun; the Leopards line up in a 4-2-5 Nickel.
Dana Slaton takes the snap and drops back into the pocket.
Slaton passes to Phil Thurman at the TB 33.
The ball is caught at the TB 33 by Phil Thurman.
Thurman is ruled out of bounds at the point of the catch.
Pass by Dana Slaton intended for Phil Thurman is incomplete.
Don Oates (DE, GB) is shaken up on the play; he will return soon.
Admin
Chris
April 01, 2014 at 02:35AM View BBCode
Some passes in non-sideline packages will occasionally be near the sideline... the sideline play groups exclusively throw near the sideline though.Chris
Admin
I had to do a lot of code rearranging to make the draw work, and then I hit the wall that has kept me from adding much for a while, so now I am rearranging myself around that wall.
Chris
April 01, 2014 at 02:37AM View BBCode
Two in a row is pretty unusual, though, so I will make sure I haven't broken something.I had to do a lot of code rearranging to make the draw work, and then I hit the wall that has kept me from adding much for a while, so now I am rearranging myself around that wall.
Chris
Admin
Something is wrong, though; it's only been stuffed three times, it should be more susceptible to stuffs than a middle run. It is probably due to the auto-switch to the Nickel, losing the middle linebacker is hurting the defense more than I expected. Maybe I should turn off the auto switch and allow you to configure when to switch in the advanced strategies?
Actually, stuffs across the board appear down. I found and fixed a bug in the middle run while installing this so that is now being more effective than it should be... I suspect I made some across-the-board run adjustment at some point to compensate for that unknown bug. So we may be in for another bout of re-balancing the running game.
Chris
[Edited on 4-1-2014 by Admin]
April 01, 2014 at 03:58AM View BBCode
Originally posted by RichNYC1
It took me a couple of games to get my offense going after this change, but it is humming now. I think the Draw is a much better weapon against the blitz than the Screen. It doesnt produce as many long TDīs, but it seems to create more consistent positive yardage plays than the Screen, with itīs incompletions and negative plays. It also seems to set up the Long Shotgun Pass better. The Shotgun Set is probably going to be too easy now, but if we get some new defensive tools weīll figure it out. ;)
Something is wrong, though; it's only been stuffed three times, it should be more susceptible to stuffs than a middle run. It is probably due to the auto-switch to the Nickel, losing the middle linebacker is hurting the defense more than I expected. Maybe I should turn off the auto switch and allow you to configure when to switch in the advanced strategies?
Actually, stuffs across the board appear down. I found and fixed a bug in the middle run while installing this so that is now being more effective than it should be... I suspect I made some across-the-board run adjustment at some point to compensate for that unknown bug. So we may be in for another bout of re-balancing the running game.
Chris
[Edited on 4-1-2014 by Admin]
Admin
vs. Balanced Run Cover, 33 plays, avg gain 3.8 yds, 1/33 stuffed
vs. Inside Run Cover, 16 plays, avg gain 2.9 yds, 0/16 stuffed (this should be close to a 50% stuff rate)
vs. Outside Run Cover, 23 plays, avg gain 3.7 yds, 0/23 stuffed
vs. Man to Man, 18 plays, avg gain 7.25 yds, 1/18 stuffed
vs. Shallow Zone, 36 plays, avg gain 5.25 yds, 0/36 stuffed
vs. Deep Zone/Prevent, 54 plays, avg gain 6.6 yds, 0/54 stuffed
vs. Sam-Will Blitz, 10 plays, avg gain 6.6 yds, 0/10 stuffed
vs. Corners Blitz, 1 play, avg gain 1.3 yds, 0/1 stuffed
vs. Maximum Blitz, 15 plays, avg gain 4.5 yds, 1/15 stuffed
Chris
April 01, 2014 at 04:06AM View BBCode
Here are the current Beta stats:vs. Balanced Run Cover, 33 plays, avg gain 3.8 yds, 1/33 stuffed
vs. Inside Run Cover, 16 plays, avg gain 2.9 yds, 0/16 stuffed (this should be close to a 50% stuff rate)
vs. Outside Run Cover, 23 plays, avg gain 3.7 yds, 0/23 stuffed
vs. Man to Man, 18 plays, avg gain 7.25 yds, 1/18 stuffed
vs. Shallow Zone, 36 plays, avg gain 5.25 yds, 0/36 stuffed
vs. Deep Zone/Prevent, 54 plays, avg gain 6.6 yds, 0/54 stuffed
vs. Sam-Will Blitz, 10 plays, avg gain 6.6 yds, 0/10 stuffed
vs. Corners Blitz, 1 play, avg gain 1.3 yds, 0/1 stuffed
vs. Maximum Blitz, 15 plays, avg gain 4.5 yds, 1/15 stuffed
Chris
RichNYC1
April 02, 2014 at 01:20AM View BBCode
Things definitely looked different in the playoffs, much more normal. Seems like there were some changes but it could also be that owners were actually playing.
Admin
Chris
April 02, 2014 at 08:20AM View BBCode
That's the hard part, we have so many inactive owners, especially in Zeta.Chris
casperthegm
April 02, 2014 at 10:38AM View BBCode
Yep, that could potentially skew the numbers. I'd bet that a number of people would jump at the opportunity to join Zeta if given the chance.
RichNYC1
April 02, 2014 at 11:21AM View BBCode
I agree, we should do some invites. If we brought them into Beta P, with just the 16 teams, it would be easier. I can think of 4-5 guys right off the bat.
Closer
On the "Something is wrong" point, I have to agree. I had 6 draws and each was for positive yards, between 4 - 15 yds. I've seen a few other in other games and they also were all gainers.
April 02, 2014 at 12:02PM View BBCode
Originally posted by Admin
Originally posted by RichNYC1
It took me a couple of games to get my offense going after this change, but it is humming now. I think the Draw is a much better weapon against the blitz than the Screen. It doesnt produce as many long TDīs, but it seems to create more consistent positive yardage plays than the Screen, with itīs incompletions and negative plays. It also seems to set up the Long Shotgun Pass better. The Shotgun Set is probably going to be too easy now, but if we get some new defensive tools weīll figure it out. ;)
Something is wrong, though; it's only been stuffed three times, it should be more susceptible to stuffs than a middle run. It is probably due to the auto-switch to the Nickel, losing the middle linebacker is hurting the defense more than I expected. Maybe I should turn off the auto switch and allow you to configure when to switch in the advanced strategies?
Actually, stuffs across the board appear down. I found and fixed a bug in the middle run while installing this so that is now being more effective than it should be... I suspect I made some across-the-board run adjustment at some point to compensate for that unknown bug. So we may be in for another bout of re-balancing the running game.
Chris
[Edited on 4-1-2014 by Admin]
On the "Something is wrong" point, I have to agree. I had 6 draws and each was for positive yards, between 4 - 15 yds. I've seen a few other in other games and they also were all gainers.
Pages: 1 2