 |
View Old Forum Thread
Old Forum Index » Sim Forums » Football Enhancements » Formations / playcalling (warning: wall of text)
Tutori
I don't really have suggestions for the what (though I do have preferences for personnel - 12, 22, and 10), as I do for how I think it should be controlled. I would picture a new tab in coaching strategies where, instead of down + distance down the left side, you would have all of the plays, and across the top you would have all the formations. You would then enter in the % of the time that if you were going to run that play, you would use that formation. So a row might read like this:
This would mean that if a long pass was selected for your play, 35% of the time you would line up in a shotgun to run that play, and 40% of the time you would line up with 4 WRs. I'm thinking start out with a generic one, and then if people thought it was necessary, you could add an advanced option where you would set it for each zone (i.e. red zone, 2 min, etc).
I think this is the easier way to go (basing formation on playcall) rather than the other way around. This way, you're only adding one extra screen. If you were to try and base playcall on formation (which does make a little more intuitive sense - but maybe that's just from Madden), then the entire coaching strategies page would have to be scrapped, and a new page would probably need to be created for each down and distance. However, it would be nice to see the final probabilities broken down somewhere - probably linked to from the coaching strategies page. This would be a read only table showing the down and distance, and the final probabilities of each formation/playcall combination.
The other option might be a little simpler, explicitly choose a formation with each playcall for a specific down and distance. So instead of just listing the playcall, a line in the coaching strategies page would look like this:
The biggest problem with this is that you would need to add several more options to each down and distance to keep up the variety.
Of course, the most work with any of these would probably be implementing each playcall with each formation, and making sure they're somewhat balanced. You'd want a shotgun run against a nickle defense to be slightly less effective than a regular run against a base defense, as this would be balanced out by the fact that you would see fewer run covers called when the defense is playing in the nickle. Likewise, a shotgun pass against a nickle should be slightly more effective than an I form pass against a base defense.
Defensive adjustments
Ok, so that's a big new addition to offense, what needs to be done to defense to balance it out? The main one is a way to match defensive personnel to what the offense has out on the field, i.e. make sure you have WR+2 defensive backs out on the field. This might mean that if there is a 4 WR formation you would need to implement a dime defense. This could either go by personnel or by formation, personnel is probably better, but then you'd need a way to treat an opposing player as something other than his listed position. The other thing would be a way to change your defensive call based on the offensive formation. Well, probably just based on the # of WRs, as to change it for each formation would be hugely messy, and # of WRs is a close enough approximation in most circumstances. I mean, you don't really want to run a run cover D when your opponent lines up with 5 WRs (well, unless you're playing the Broncos).
Goalline formations
One other thing to bring up here would be the addition of goalline formations. I think this would be slightly more complicated than the other ones, as you would only want to run it when you had less than a yard to go. This would need to be some kind of special exception, and would be somewhat tricky with my first idea for offensive formation control, but would work well with the second one. You would probably have to add an extra distance for each down - so you'd have 2nd and long, 2nd and medium, 2nd and short, and 2nd and inches - as 2nd and inches would be the only time you could use the goalline formation (though you wouldn't want to exclusively do it either).
Keying in / tendencies
So with added complexity comes a need for further micro-management, which is something I'm hoping to lessen the need for with this suggestion. Basically, it would take a lessened version of "keying in" and apply it when your opponent strongly favors certain actions in some situations. I'm thinking it would apply more to formation than down and distance, since everyone is going to throw on 3rd and long (though I'm hearing conversion rates might be too high for 3rd and long, if so, this could certainly help). There would also be a corresponding penalty (probably to a greater effect to balance out the lower frequency) if the offense broke their tendencies and, say, ran the draw with 4 WR on 3rd and 9, or threw a playaction pass out of their goalline offense, even though they'd only done it one other time this season. Basically, scouting the other team is hard, and if you were an NFL team you'd have a team of guys to do it for you, but here you don't, so some of it should be done automatically.
Yeah, sorry about the massive post, it started off with me wanting a way to consistently put either 3 WR or 2 TE out on the field, and ended with me writing a paragraph on every tangent I thought of.
Formations / playcalling (warning: wall of text)
January 25, 2012 at 10:19PM View BBCode
I know you're working on this somewhere along the line, just wanted to get my input in. Well, what I'm really looking for isn't formations, as much as it is personnel groupings. Specifically for offense, though it would need to be balanced out with a couple of defensive changes too.I don't really have suggestions for the what (though I do have preferences for personnel - 12, 22, and 10), as I do for how I think it should be controlled. I would picture a new tab in coaching strategies where, instead of down + distance down the left side, you would have all of the plays, and across the top you would have all the formations. You would then enter in the % of the time that if you were going to run that play, you would use that formation. So a row might read like this:
"long pass" - 10% pro set - 15% I formation - 35% shotgun - 40% 4WR
This would mean that if a long pass was selected for your play, 35% of the time you would line up in a shotgun to run that play, and 40% of the time you would line up with 4 WRs. I'm thinking start out with a generic one, and then if people thought it was necessary, you could add an advanced option where you would set it for each zone (i.e. red zone, 2 min, etc).
I think this is the easier way to go (basing formation on playcall) rather than the other way around. This way, you're only adding one extra screen. If you were to try and base playcall on formation (which does make a little more intuitive sense - but maybe that's just from Madden), then the entire coaching strategies page would have to be scrapped, and a new page would probably need to be created for each down and distance. However, it would be nice to see the final probabilities broken down somewhere - probably linked to from the coaching strategies page. This would be a read only table showing the down and distance, and the final probabilities of each formation/playcall combination.
The other option might be a little simpler, explicitly choose a formation with each playcall for a specific down and distance. So instead of just listing the playcall, a line in the coaching strategies page would look like this:
"1st down" - 15% I form end run - 15% Pro set end run - 5% I form middle run - 10% pro set playaction - 10% I form medium pass - 15% shotgun end run - 15% shotgun medium pass - 15% shotgun long pass
The biggest problem with this is that you would need to add several more options to each down and distance to keep up the variety.
Of course, the most work with any of these would probably be implementing each playcall with each formation, and making sure they're somewhat balanced. You'd want a shotgun run against a nickle defense to be slightly less effective than a regular run against a base defense, as this would be balanced out by the fact that you would see fewer run covers called when the defense is playing in the nickle. Likewise, a shotgun pass against a nickle should be slightly more effective than an I form pass against a base defense.
Defensive adjustments
Ok, so that's a big new addition to offense, what needs to be done to defense to balance it out? The main one is a way to match defensive personnel to what the offense has out on the field, i.e. make sure you have WR+2 defensive backs out on the field. This might mean that if there is a 4 WR formation you would need to implement a dime defense. This could either go by personnel or by formation, personnel is probably better, but then you'd need a way to treat an opposing player as something other than his listed position. The other thing would be a way to change your defensive call based on the offensive formation. Well, probably just based on the # of WRs, as to change it for each formation would be hugely messy, and # of WRs is a close enough approximation in most circumstances. I mean, you don't really want to run a run cover D when your opponent lines up with 5 WRs (well, unless you're playing the Broncos).
Goalline formations
One other thing to bring up here would be the addition of goalline formations. I think this would be slightly more complicated than the other ones, as you would only want to run it when you had less than a yard to go. This would need to be some kind of special exception, and would be somewhat tricky with my first idea for offensive formation control, but would work well with the second one. You would probably have to add an extra distance for each down - so you'd have 2nd and long, 2nd and medium, 2nd and short, and 2nd and inches - as 2nd and inches would be the only time you could use the goalline formation (though you wouldn't want to exclusively do it either).
Keying in / tendencies
So with added complexity comes a need for further micro-management, which is something I'm hoping to lessen the need for with this suggestion. Basically, it would take a lessened version of "keying in" and apply it when your opponent strongly favors certain actions in some situations. I'm thinking it would apply more to formation than down and distance, since everyone is going to throw on 3rd and long (though I'm hearing conversion rates might be too high for 3rd and long, if so, this could certainly help). There would also be a corresponding penalty (probably to a greater effect to balance out the lower frequency) if the offense broke their tendencies and, say, ran the draw with 4 WR on 3rd and 9, or threw a playaction pass out of their goalline offense, even though they'd only done it one other time this season. Basically, scouting the other team is hard, and if you were an NFL team you'd have a team of guys to do it for you, but here you don't, so some of it should be done automatically.
Yeah, sorry about the massive post, it started off with me wanting a way to consistently put either 3 WR or 2 TE out on the field, and ended with me writing a paragraph on every tangent I thought of.
EdSales87
But you make great suggestions.
January 26, 2012 at 12:04AM View BBCode
I haven't seen Keying In in our league once, and we have teams that always run on 1st and 2nd and then pass on third.But you make great suggestions.
Admin
Chris
January 26, 2012 at 07:07PM View BBCode
The actual keying in message isn't visible, but it does affect the play. (It is visible in Beta for testing purposes).Chris
EdSales87
January 27, 2012 at 01:45AM View formatted
You are viewing the raw post code; this allows you to copy a message with BBCode formatting intact.
Is it possible we could see "Keyed in" in premium leagues? I had saw it Beta and not in our leagues so just figured it was in.
Admin
Also, it is worth noting that "keyed in" started as an anti-abuse measure but is slowly evolving into a feature of the defense.
Which is all to say that I can probably display it if I find a better way to present it such that it doesn't cause a bunch of confusion and questions. There is a lot of information in the sim that is currently not displayed that I would like to find a good way to convey.
--Chris
January 28, 2012 at 10:00PM View BBCode
I have to admit that not showing "Keying in" is in part a selfish move; I know that the moment I start displaying it, I will be questioned every time it shows up on a play, either as to why the defense was keyed in or why the offense succeeded despite the defense being keyed in. And part of the problem is that "keyed" is, in this case, an off-the-cuff debug message that does not correspond with the proper football meaning of "keyed".Also, it is worth noting that "keyed in" started as an anti-abuse measure but is slowly evolving into a feature of the defense.
Which is all to say that I can probably display it if I find a better way to present it such that it doesn't cause a bunch of confusion and questions. There is a lot of information in the sim that is currently not displayed that I would like to find a good way to convey.
--Chris
PatriotFan78blitz
January 20, 2013 at 02:24AM View BBCode
Perhaps instead of using the words "keyed In", we could have a defensive captain call an audable and likewise for the offense. I'm ofcourse assuming that we have audables in the game. This could indicate the change in the offensive or defensive motivation for the play in question without making it seem that either really has an advantage on the play. Audables afterall are guesses made in response to an understanding that may or may not be correct. End jibberish.Pages: 1