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ChipArm
Chip
Another Trade Complaint
September 15, 2011 at 03:39PM View BBCode
I see that there is a vote request on the Minnesota - Detroit deal. Was that protested as well?Chip
DeepThreat
However, I'm also not going to vote against the trade. Why? Robot has been around long enough and given way more advice than any other SD player I've ever seen... to know not to make these terrible trades. At this point, he should lie in the bed he makes... until he begins to change how he makes it. He whines about how bad his teams are, yet ignores the advice given to him by people with multiple championships and successful teams. He doesn't seem capable of adding up how his terrible trades are destroying his progress. Since he's been given so much advice and had so many opportunities to learn from his mistakes... it's his own fault for getting ripped off, even if marginally so.
If he allows everyone else to take advantage of him, a this point, it's his own fault.
September 15, 2011 at 05:50PM View BBCode
Possibly so, it does look like a very uneven trade ripping off Minnesota. Robot's going to get a guy that won't be very good for him and has already begun to decline... and a far worse prospect than what he's giving up.However, I'm also not going to vote against the trade. Why? Robot has been around long enough and given way more advice than any other SD player I've ever seen... to know not to make these terrible trades. At this point, he should lie in the bed he makes... until he begins to change how he makes it. He whines about how bad his teams are, yet ignores the advice given to him by people with multiple championships and successful teams. He doesn't seem capable of adding up how his terrible trades are destroying his progress. Since he's been given so much advice and had so many opportunities to learn from his mistakes... it's his own fault for getting ripped off, even if marginally so.
If he allows everyone else to take advantage of him, a this point, it's his own fault.
GatorBoudreaux
I was going to vote against this trade because based on the the recent moves I knew we were going to get another profanity laden post about how ABE was out to get him.
After considering it again I decided too that you can't protect him from himself. He's been given tons of advice and won't take it. Whether he's initiating these deals himself or guys are intentionally taking advantage of him is irrelevant at this point.
September 15, 2011 at 07:05PM View BBCode
DeepThreat is spot on here.I was going to vote against this trade because based on the the recent moves I knew we were going to get another profanity laden post about how ABE was out to get him.
After considering it again I decided too that you can't protect him from himself. He's been given tons of advice and won't take it. Whether he's initiating these deals himself or guys are intentionally taking advantage of him is irrelevant at this point.
Bayside
I'm going to refrain from commenting on the actual trade per admins request. In my somewhat limited time on SIM (38 seasons in total), one thing I HAVE learned is that admin isn't lying when they say "I ask that you refrain from discussing trades. Nothing positive ever comes from this". I'm not the Commish or an authority figure at all or telling you what to do lol....just explaining why I'm notadding my (unsolicited) two cents based on past experiences lol I will say I only vote against a trade if it is an obvious attempt to dump players for no reason other then to load another team (collusion).
[Edited on 9-15-2011 by Bayside]
September 15, 2011 at 07:24PM View formatted
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My take is that there is currently 1 complaint and it was on the Pablo Smith/Edwin Jackson trade. My understanding is this was simply a trade of the prospect currently getting the 5 cps and that was noted after the complaint was lodged (i.e. cleared up the issue). Is there in fact another complaint on one of the other trades? I see no note from admin about a 2nd complaint. It appears that a "Vote on Trade" link is on every trade (an offseason addon or something) and not an indication of a filed complaint on said trade. Maybe Admin can clear this up a little further?
I'm going to refrain from commenting on the actual trade per admins request. In my somewhat limited time on SIM (38 seasons in total), one thing I HAVE learned is that admin isn't lying when they say "I ask that you refrain from discussing trades. Nothing positive ever comes from this". I'm not the Commish or an authority figure at all or telling you what to do lol....just explaining why I'm notadding my (unsolicited) two cents based on past experiences lol I will say I only vote against a trade if it is an obvious attempt to dump players for no reason other then to load another team (collusion).
[Edited on 9-15-2011 by Bayside]
DeepThreat
So, I wonder if there was another trade complaint as potentially suggested by Chip... or if all of the trades that Minnesota and/or Washington make will have that option until they are resolved. Or, maybe the other trades I've see just haven't had it added to it yet for some reason.
Yes, I also understand that the trade that was initially complained about was merely a swap for a prospect to have CPs placed on. I have no problem with that trade at all, and will keep my actual opinions on the CP-aged vet trade to myself for the meantime.
September 15, 2011 at 10:00PM View BBCode
Bayside, I know about the new feature for the vote. However, I've made three trades in other leagues since the change went through. None of those, nor any of the other trades I've seen happen, have the "Vote On" option.So, I wonder if there was another trade complaint as potentially suggested by Chip... or if all of the trades that Minnesota and/or Washington make will have that option until they are resolved. Or, maybe the other trades I've see just haven't had it added to it yet for some reason.
Yes, I also understand that the trade that was initially complained about was merely a swap for a prospect to have CPs placed on. I have no problem with that trade at all, and will keep my actual opinions on the CP-aged vet trade to myself for the meantime.
ChipArm
I hate the fantasy leagues that do that, and would be very disillusioned here. Complaints should be reserved for attempts at cheating.
I consider this like a $5 poker table. Pay your money. Do your stuff, but everyone should keep their complaints about how everyone plays to themselves. If your moves don't work, you can lament on the posting boards in a self-mocking manner. You can ask people in the league for advice. But own up to your own dumb moves.
I don't consider myself the best owner in SD history, nor an expert. I come here to have a fun diversion. I am sure that is everyone's intention.
Just the ravings of a cranky old man.
Please carry on. Nothing to see here. - Frank Drebin
PS: This league is quiet compared to the constant drama of the 6-game a day league I am in.
Chip
[Edited on 9-16-2011 by ChipArm]
September 16, 2011 at 12:15AM View BBCode
IF we are going to have a vote on every trade, or the have the option here, I am not very happy. I think, if we amend the way we do things to have a say on every trade, we should have a vote on adopting that rule.I hate the fantasy leagues that do that, and would be very disillusioned here. Complaints should be reserved for attempts at cheating.
I consider this like a $5 poker table. Pay your money. Do your stuff, but everyone should keep their complaints about how everyone plays to themselves. If your moves don't work, you can lament on the posting boards in a self-mocking manner. You can ask people in the league for advice. But own up to your own dumb moves.
I don't consider myself the best owner in SD history, nor an expert. I come here to have a fun diversion. I am sure that is everyone's intention.
Just the ravings of a cranky old man.
Please carry on. Nothing to see here. - Frank Drebin
PS: This league is quiet compared to the constant drama of the 6-game a day league I am in.
Chip
[Edited on 9-16-2011 by ChipArm]
1950srobot
Here in the TRL, I did a couple of CP trades that drained off whatever rebuilding potential I had for a couple of years. I also didn't have a single decent prospect in the minors. Frankly, I had a Playoff shot that didn't shoot. I went ahead with a "rebuild", obtaining marginal prospects and a couple of functional vets. Why?
Well, for one, the best trades aren't going to happen. Not in the TRL. Let's just get that out front. All the owners here know that real talent is very hard to obtain. BAL, NYA, MIL seem to understand the tear-down rebuild. Get awful, draft right, get better.
Other teams like DET, PHI, NYN are traders, vet accumulators, while also drafting well. I fall more on their side of things. I like vets, especially when they're still developing, but not so young everyone assumes they are a "stud" when they're not.
Drafting is actually the easy part, at this point. I don't worry about drafting. I am simply weary of the waiting, and only because this was the first SimD team I had, the longest owned, and the longest futile.
So, to reply to Deep and Gator's bleating, I extended 5 CPs in trade, which is the equivalent of a high Rd 2, for the privalege of owning an OS 30 1B. A guy who will hit homers and drive in runs from the right side. Why? Well, why not? I don't have a single prospect those CPs can help. They're wasted. But they're not wasted on WASH's prospect. And I'm not offering trades the TRL is interested in. Rd 1 or busto. I've done the Rd 1 trading thing and it hasn't worked out, that I'll passionately admit.
But here's a radical idea: you do a good turn for another owner, maybe they do you a solid later when you're trying to trade for that OS 33 SP or position player that makes your team a contender. Don't know, could happen. Even happens in real MLB. So WASH may get a better prospect, but I get maybe a shot at some of his vets later. Or a better draft pick.
I traded a prospect who is very iffy in potential and a Playoff Rd 2 for an effective A mentor SP. I don't know why anyone would twist their shorts about that. I need a mentor for a pitching staff barely average 25 yrs old. I get that mentor, who can actually play instead of just being a letter grade, for two years before he's useless.
I traded a waiver type prospect who might develop with a ton of CPs on him, and a crummy SP, for a creaky vet who hits HRs and an OS 22 prospect with C+/B power. With an Oct birthdate, that prospect interests me more than the OS 19 prospect with the May birthdate, no power and never will, and bad health. I don't care about health, but in the case of a clear leadoff prototype, it's a big deal to me. A fourth OF? Better than a fourth OF with zero power, IMO.
So let me throw down the gauntlet: Gator, you don't trade much, but when you do?
10/14/1987
A trade has been completed between the New York Gothams and the Pittsburgh Pitts. The Pittsburgh Pitts receive Brian Sampen from the New York Gothams in exchange for Charlie Porzio, Draft Pick 1988 Round 2 PIT (Jim Shawkey), Draft Pick 1989 Round 2 PIT (Tom Warwick).
10/5/1987
A trade has been completed between the New York Gothams and the Pittsburgh Pitts. The Pittsburgh Pitts receive Mike Smithson, Nick Hill from the New York Gothams in exchange for Don Russell, Draft Pick 1988 Round 1 PIT (Ron Dessens), Draft Pick 1989 Round 1 PIT (Walter Burrows).
7/3/1985
A trade has been completed between the Pittsburgh Pitts and the New York Gothams. The New York Gothams receive Draft Pick 1986 Round 2 PIT (John Kremers) from the Pittsburgh Pitts in exchange for Dave Barrett.
Need I go on? Pure genius. I'm sure NYA thinks you're keen.
DeepThreat: I see what I'm not doing with this team. I'm not turning them into CHI of the AL. I don't see the talent accumulation CHI managed happening anywhere else in this League. NYN is the closest, and BAL. Can't find fault in teams managing to draft well and trade well. I guess I'm the rube in this League. I can't argue with that either.
But I think this League is the worst one I've ever seen for imbalance, particularly with drafts in recent years. Half of these hitters in this League aren't that great, but against the limpid pitching draftees we're exposed to, they are HoFers.
I think this League is slightly broken. The drafts have been mediocre at best. The prospects are unexciting. When's the last time something like this came through here? http://www.simdynasty.com/player.jsp?player=nobody&mode=stats&id=9022115
and hasn't played for CHI in the AL for ten years?
I get tired of this League, tired of its top-heavy imbalance, and really tired of the superior attitudes that crawl out of the woodwork from "people with multiple championships and successful teams." Because we all know CHI is the only team that matters in this League, and "success" is coming in second or worst for most of this decade. So any other "multiple championship/successful" teams existed long before I got here, because I've only seen two in the ten years I've been here.
September 16, 2011 at 03:04AM View BBCode
I'm only going to explain this once, so keep up. Particularly DeepThreat and Gator.Here in the TRL, I did a couple of CP trades that drained off whatever rebuilding potential I had for a couple of years. I also didn't have a single decent prospect in the minors. Frankly, I had a Playoff shot that didn't shoot. I went ahead with a "rebuild", obtaining marginal prospects and a couple of functional vets. Why?
Well, for one, the best trades aren't going to happen. Not in the TRL. Let's just get that out front. All the owners here know that real talent is very hard to obtain. BAL, NYA, MIL seem to understand the tear-down rebuild. Get awful, draft right, get better.
Other teams like DET, PHI, NYN are traders, vet accumulators, while also drafting well. I fall more on their side of things. I like vets, especially when they're still developing, but not so young everyone assumes they are a "stud" when they're not.
Drafting is actually the easy part, at this point. I don't worry about drafting. I am simply weary of the waiting, and only because this was the first SimD team I had, the longest owned, and the longest futile.
So, to reply to Deep and Gator's bleating, I extended 5 CPs in trade, which is the equivalent of a high Rd 2, for the privalege of owning an OS 30 1B. A guy who will hit homers and drive in runs from the right side. Why? Well, why not? I don't have a single prospect those CPs can help. They're wasted. But they're not wasted on WASH's prospect. And I'm not offering trades the TRL is interested in. Rd 1 or busto. I've done the Rd 1 trading thing and it hasn't worked out, that I'll passionately admit.
But here's a radical idea: you do a good turn for another owner, maybe they do you a solid later when you're trying to trade for that OS 33 SP or position player that makes your team a contender. Don't know, could happen. Even happens in real MLB. So WASH may get a better prospect, but I get maybe a shot at some of his vets later. Or a better draft pick.
I traded a prospect who is very iffy in potential and a Playoff Rd 2 for an effective A mentor SP. I don't know why anyone would twist their shorts about that. I need a mentor for a pitching staff barely average 25 yrs old. I get that mentor, who can actually play instead of just being a letter grade, for two years before he's useless.
I traded a waiver type prospect who might develop with a ton of CPs on him, and a crummy SP, for a creaky vet who hits HRs and an OS 22 prospect with C+/B power. With an Oct birthdate, that prospect interests me more than the OS 19 prospect with the May birthdate, no power and never will, and bad health. I don't care about health, but in the case of a clear leadoff prototype, it's a big deal to me. A fourth OF? Better than a fourth OF with zero power, IMO.
So let me throw down the gauntlet: Gator, you don't trade much, but when you do?
10/14/1987
A trade has been completed between the New York Gothams and the Pittsburgh Pitts. The Pittsburgh Pitts receive Brian Sampen from the New York Gothams in exchange for Charlie Porzio, Draft Pick 1988 Round 2 PIT (Jim Shawkey), Draft Pick 1989 Round 2 PIT (Tom Warwick).
10/5/1987
A trade has been completed between the New York Gothams and the Pittsburgh Pitts. The Pittsburgh Pitts receive Mike Smithson, Nick Hill from the New York Gothams in exchange for Don Russell, Draft Pick 1988 Round 1 PIT (Ron Dessens), Draft Pick 1989 Round 1 PIT (Walter Burrows).
7/3/1985
A trade has been completed between the Pittsburgh Pitts and the New York Gothams. The New York Gothams receive Draft Pick 1986 Round 2 PIT (John Kremers) from the Pittsburgh Pitts in exchange for Dave Barrett.
Need I go on? Pure genius. I'm sure NYA thinks you're keen.
DeepThreat: I see what I'm not doing with this team. I'm not turning them into CHI of the AL. I don't see the talent accumulation CHI managed happening anywhere else in this League. NYN is the closest, and BAL. Can't find fault in teams managing to draft well and trade well. I guess I'm the rube in this League. I can't argue with that either.
But I think this League is the worst one I've ever seen for imbalance, particularly with drafts in recent years. Half of these hitters in this League aren't that great, but against the limpid pitching draftees we're exposed to, they are HoFers.
I think this League is slightly broken. The drafts have been mediocre at best. The prospects are unexciting. When's the last time something like this came through here? http://www.simdynasty.com/player.jsp?player=nobody&mode=stats&id=9022115
and hasn't played for CHI in the AL for ten years?
I get tired of this League, tired of its top-heavy imbalance, and really tired of the superior attitudes that crawl out of the woodwork from "people with multiple championships and successful teams." Because we all know CHI is the only team that matters in this League, and "success" is coming in second or worst for most of this decade. So any other "multiple championship/successful" teams existed long before I got here, because I've only seen two in the ten years I've been here.
DeepThreat
You want to point out a lack of talent accumulation. Tell you what, go back and look at the draft picks you traded and see what was acquired. Then compare that to what you got in return for those picks.
How do you think Pier got his talent? How do you think I got my talent overall when I was competitive, and what I'm developing now? How do you think Joe got most of his? Yes, there may have been some trading for vets here and there, but those are usually fillers brought in to finish off a team, not the backbone to it.
Look at my guys, and look at yours. You realize that only three times now in the my rebuilding stage I've had a higher draft pick than you? Yet, why do I have a stronger prospect base? I didn't trade my picks for crap. I also got the best prospects I could for the vets I had.
Here, let's point this out. You took over in 1981. Here's what you could have had:
1982 draft #2 overall pick [url=http://simdynasty.com/player.jsp?id=7386512]Len Loane[/url] traded to Boston #18 [url=http://simdynasty.com/player.jsp?id=7386507]Art Luna [/url] traded to CHN
1983 draft #1 overall [url=http://simdynasty.com/player.jsp?id=7621843]Ricky Day[/url] traded to PHI #17 [url=http://simdynasty.com/player.jsp?id=7621845]Jason Brummet[/url] traded to me.
1984 draft #1 overall [url=http://simdynasty.com/player.jsp?id=8175868]Ox Weiss[/url] traded to BOS, #17 [url=http://simdynasty.com/player.jsp?id=8175936]Austin Matthews[/url] traded to Detroit.
1985 draft #2 overall [url=http://simdynasty.com/player.jsp?id=8484813]Kirby Jackson[/url] traded to BRO, #18 [url=http://simdynasty.com/player.jsp?id=8484839]Jay Chatham[/url] traded to Philly
1986 draft #2 overall [url=http://simdynasty.com/player.jsp?id=8699733]Glenn Wright[/url] traded to BRO, #18 [url=http://simdynasty.com/player.jsp?id=8699746]Pat Moron[/url] traded to StL
1987 draft #10 overall [url=http://simdynasty.com/player.jsp?id=8870159]Mike Flood[/url] traded to NYA, #26 [url=http://simdynasty.com/player.jsp?id=8870166]Steve Vukovich[/url] traded to me
1988 draft #4 overall [url=http://simdynasty.com/player.jsp?id=9022835]Danny Gruber[/url] traded to WAS, #20 [url=http://simdynasty.com/player.jsp?id=9022807]Jack Meier[/url] traded to Philly...... you got this guy back... but you had to give up two BETTER players to get him!
1989 #5 overall [url=http://simdynasty.com/player.jsp?id=9171702]Buck Austin[/url] traded to MIL, #21 [url=http://simdynasty.com/player.jsp?id=9171706]Bob Fahey[/url] traded to DET
YOU HAVE DRAFTED 1 SINGLE 1ST AND 1 SINGLE 2ND ROUNDER EVER! And the only reason you did that was because you didn't have time to trade them away when you first got here... and you wound up waving both of them!
How can you possibly whine about no one accumulating talent when you have had the opportunity to draft every one of these guys OR BETTER since you've been here? Imagine how good your team would be if you hadn't traded away all of those picks? What did you get for it? Sure, you've traded for a handful of 1st rounders, but you've traded away those guys too!
There's a reason some of us have had multiple successes. We're also the people who have given you advice time and time again... now here's your exposed to you.
You have had 2 #1 picks, 3 #2 picks, 1 #4 pick, 2 #5 picks, and 1 #10 pick... you're team should be on the verge of being a monster!
[Edited on 9-16-2011 by DeepThreat]
September 16, 2011 at 06:39AM View BBCode
Robot, you can get tired of whatever you wish to. Just like we get tired of you're profane posts about how bad your team is.You want to point out a lack of talent accumulation. Tell you what, go back and look at the draft picks you traded and see what was acquired. Then compare that to what you got in return for those picks.
How do you think Pier got his talent? How do you think I got my talent overall when I was competitive, and what I'm developing now? How do you think Joe got most of his? Yes, there may have been some trading for vets here and there, but those are usually fillers brought in to finish off a team, not the backbone to it.
Look at my guys, and look at yours. You realize that only three times now in the my rebuilding stage I've had a higher draft pick than you? Yet, why do I have a stronger prospect base? I didn't trade my picks for crap. I also got the best prospects I could for the vets I had.
Here, let's point this out. You took over in 1981. Here's what you could have had:
1982 draft #2 overall pick [url=http://simdynasty.com/player.jsp?id=7386512]Len Loane[/url] traded to Boston #18 [url=http://simdynasty.com/player.jsp?id=7386507]Art Luna [/url] traded to CHN
1983 draft #1 overall [url=http://simdynasty.com/player.jsp?id=7621843]Ricky Day[/url] traded to PHI #17 [url=http://simdynasty.com/player.jsp?id=7621845]Jason Brummet[/url] traded to me.
1984 draft #1 overall [url=http://simdynasty.com/player.jsp?id=8175868]Ox Weiss[/url] traded to BOS, #17 [url=http://simdynasty.com/player.jsp?id=8175936]Austin Matthews[/url] traded to Detroit.
1985 draft #2 overall [url=http://simdynasty.com/player.jsp?id=8484813]Kirby Jackson[/url] traded to BRO, #18 [url=http://simdynasty.com/player.jsp?id=8484839]Jay Chatham[/url] traded to Philly
1986 draft #2 overall [url=http://simdynasty.com/player.jsp?id=8699733]Glenn Wright[/url] traded to BRO, #18 [url=http://simdynasty.com/player.jsp?id=8699746]Pat Moron[/url] traded to StL
1987 draft #10 overall [url=http://simdynasty.com/player.jsp?id=8870159]Mike Flood[/url] traded to NYA, #26 [url=http://simdynasty.com/player.jsp?id=8870166]Steve Vukovich[/url] traded to me
1988 draft #4 overall [url=http://simdynasty.com/player.jsp?id=9022835]Danny Gruber[/url] traded to WAS, #20 [url=http://simdynasty.com/player.jsp?id=9022807]Jack Meier[/url] traded to Philly...... you got this guy back... but you had to give up two BETTER players to get him!
1989 #5 overall [url=http://simdynasty.com/player.jsp?id=9171702]Buck Austin[/url] traded to MIL, #21 [url=http://simdynasty.com/player.jsp?id=9171706]Bob Fahey[/url] traded to DET
YOU HAVE DRAFTED 1 SINGLE 1ST AND 1 SINGLE 2ND ROUNDER EVER! And the only reason you did that was because you didn't have time to trade them away when you first got here... and you wound up waving both of them!
How can you possibly whine about no one accumulating talent when you have had the opportunity to draft every one of these guys OR BETTER since you've been here? Imagine how good your team would be if you hadn't traded away all of those picks? What did you get for it? Sure, you've traded for a handful of 1st rounders, but you've traded away those guys too!
There's a reason some of us have had multiple successes. We're also the people who have given you advice time and time again... now here's your exposed to you.
You have had 2 #1 picks, 3 #2 picks, 1 #4 pick, 2 #5 picks, and 1 #10 pick... you're team should be on the verge of being a monster!
[Edited on 9-16-2011 by DeepThreat]
DeepThreat
September 16, 2011 at 07:01AM View BBCode
Also, Robot... just because you can't manage to find the non-obvious top prospects in a draft, doesn't mean they haven't been good. My guy Erickson is better than Satchell. Got him 3 drafts ago. And that's just off the top of my head.
DeepThreat
September 16, 2011 at 07:02AM View BBCode
And also for clarification. There was a trade in another league earlier today that now has the "Vote" option after it. So maybe Bayside was correct that this will be on every trade now.
Admin
Please no public discussions of trades. It just creates problems.
There is a Vote on Trade link for every trade made after 1PM on September 13th.
Tyson
September 16, 2011 at 02:52PM View BBCode
Hi Guys,Please no public discussions of trades. It just creates problems.
There is a Vote on Trade link for every trade made after 1PM on September 13th.
Tyson
1950srobot
Now THAT is funny.
September 16, 2011 at 08:17PM View BBCode
"My guy Erickson is better than Satchell."Now THAT is funny.
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