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Hamilton2
My team defense last season was awful. We allowed the most points of any team with an active owner by a wide margin. In 4 seasons we have allowed 282 (9th), 281 (6th), 308 (8th), and 468 (15th) total points in chronological order. I use the default defensive settings for my coach prefs. My entire defensive roster has improved in overall grade season-by-season. In 4 games this season we have allowed a league high 130 points and are 1-3 despite scoring 108 (3rd) so far.
So, what has changed that is causing my team to be worse now than when we started?
1) [b]My strategies getting worse[/b]: I used the default strategy for seasons 1 and 2, with "Run Stop" as my basic green zone strategy. Everything else was "Default." This season I am experimenting with a custom strategy but thus far it has been a disaster.
2) [b]Defensive player ratings vs. offensive player ratings are lower.[/b] I thought that this was true, but am starting to have my doubts. D-line vs. O-line features red letter DT's vs. 35 red-letter G's (but Karl O'Neal's 94 overall is the highest rating of any player in the league) as well as 20 red DE's vs. 16 red OT's. The line of scrimmage seems fairly well-matched. There are, IMO, an adequate number of competent LB's to match-up with similarly ranked RB/TE's. The DB's are where I expected a huge discrepancy (since we had that WR rich draft a few years back). Surprisingly, there isn't a huge difference in the WR vs. CB ratings. There are 9 CB's from 80-85 and 28 76+; There are 14 80-85 WR and 31 76+. So, the WR's are slightly deeper and better, but not terribly so; and when consider that safeties are supposed to be available to help out on pass coverage I think that things are fairly balanced in the ratings department.
3) [b]Other team's strategies improving.[/b] I don't know if they have or not, but the total points scored around the league are dramatically increased from 1960 to '63. In 1963 there were 5,715 total points scored in the league, this is up from 4,575 in 1960 (an increase of over 20% in 4 seasons). Is it the result of better time management and red zone conversions? Possibly. Still, this doesn't answer the question of: why does [i]my team[/i] completely suck at defense now and we didn't in seasons '60 and '61?
4) [b]Tackling isn't as important as it should be.[/b] I like players who can tackle. Tackling and Execution should be, IMO, the two most important defensive attributes. Still, I find my team unable to do simple things like tackle a guy and prevent a last second hail mary from beating us, so I have to wonder, what difference does tackling really make? The starting 11 for every team around the league have an average tackling skill of 85. The two teams with the highest average tackling skill are ATL and HAM at 87.91 and the team with the lowest is SF at 80.36. That means that there is over a full grade point difference in SF's team ability to tackle and ATL/HAM's team ability. All 3 of these teams are 1-3. This data probably means absolutely nothing, but whatever.
[b]Summary (read this part, the rest is probably crap)[/b]
At this point, defense is nothing but guess work and luck. I have an excellent DT (one of the best in the league) and a solid D-line, but we get gutted for big runs up the middle as much as anyone does (3 TD runs of 40+ yards in the final 4 games last season, cost us a playoff chance).
I am playing my OLB's as the two guys with the best pass coverage skill, because they are my 4-2-5 LB's and they are most likely to be required to cover a TE; yet my two INT's this season have been by a MLB.
I watch the boxscores and marvel at why so-and-so is breaking a tackle attempt from such-and-such when he was lined up in front of whoever at the snap. For example, on [url=http://footballbeta.simdynasty.com/boxscore.jsp?boxscoreid=4994&thid=495]this play[/url] where I am defending a Shotgun Long Pass with a 4-3 defense (which should have been a Zone/Prevent or a Sam/Will Blitz from my settings, the text does NOT say that I blitzed, but if I'm in a Zone/Prevent, why am I not in a 4-2-5 defense?). He has [url=http://footballbeta.simdynasty.com/player.jsp?id=133018]Larry Wheeler[/url] lined up as the slot receiver. I would expect my FS, [url=http://footballbeta.simdynasty.com/player.jsp?id=127930]Joe Beauchamp[/url] to line up to cover Wheeler; since [url=http://footballbeta.simdynasty.com/player.jsp?id=127781]Scott[/url] is paired with [url=http://footballbeta.simdynasty.com/player.jsp?id=126961]Glennie[/url] and [url=http://footballbeta.simdynasty.com/player.jsp?id=132964]Waddy[/url] is on the other side of the field matched with [url=http://footballbeta.simdynasty.com/player.jsp?id=131941]Visco Logan[/url]. But that isn't what happened. For some reason, when the pass is thrown 27 yards down field and caught on the 7 yard line the closest defender is Jim Waddy, who misses the tackle and allows the winning TD to score. Where was Beauchamp's 98 pass coverage ability on the play? Or my [url=http://footballbeta.simdynasty.com/player.jsp?id=127941]SS[/url] who has 92 tackling, 74 pursuit and 83 speed? Was he defending the run? With 1 second left and a 3-point lead? What happened!
I just have no idea what happens or why on the defensive side of the ball. I don't know how to optimize my team to take advantage of our strengths (tackling, and up-the-middle defense). And it is driving me crazy. Help?
Long Rant w/few gems re:Defense
September 09, 2011 at 09:46PM View formatted
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I don't really know how to go about with this question/suggestion. It is tangentially related to the out of position stuff that I've been ranting about (thanks for working to address it, Chris, I know I've been difficult); and it is partly a commentary on the nature of defense in the simulation.
My team defense last season was awful. We allowed the most points of any team with an active owner by a wide margin. In 4 seasons we have allowed 282 (9th), 281 (6th), 308 (8th), and 468 (15th) total points in chronological order. I use the default defensive settings for my coach prefs. My entire defensive roster has improved in overall grade season-by-season. In 4 games this season we have allowed a league high 130 points and are 1-3 despite scoring 108 (3rd) so far.
So, what has changed that is causing my team to be worse now than when we started?
1) [b]My strategies getting worse[/b]: I used the default strategy for seasons 1 and 2, with "Run Stop" as my basic green zone strategy. Everything else was "Default." This season I am experimenting with a custom strategy but thus far it has been a disaster.
2) [b]Defensive player ratings vs. offensive player ratings are lower.[/b] I thought that this was true, but am starting to have my doubts. D-line vs. O-line features red letter DT's vs. 35 red-letter G's (but Karl O'Neal's 94 overall is the highest rating of any player in the league) as well as 20 red DE's vs. 16 red OT's. The line of scrimmage seems fairly well-matched. There are, IMO, an adequate number of competent LB's to match-up with similarly ranked RB/TE's. The DB's are where I expected a huge discrepancy (since we had that WR rich draft a few years back). Surprisingly, there isn't a huge difference in the WR vs. CB ratings. There are 9 CB's from 80-85 and 28 76+; There are 14 80-85 WR and 31 76+. So, the WR's are slightly deeper and better, but not terribly so; and when consider that safeties are supposed to be available to help out on pass coverage I think that things are fairly balanced in the ratings department.
3) [b]Other team's strategies improving.[/b] I don't know if they have or not, but the total points scored around the league are dramatically increased from 1960 to '63. In 1963 there were 5,715 total points scored in the league, this is up from 4,575 in 1960 (an increase of over 20% in 4 seasons). Is it the result of better time management and red zone conversions? Possibly. Still, this doesn't answer the question of: why does [i]my team[/i] completely suck at defense now and we didn't in seasons '60 and '61?
4) [b]Tackling isn't as important as it should be.[/b] I like players who can tackle. Tackling and Execution should be, IMO, the two most important defensive attributes. Still, I find my team unable to do simple things like tackle a guy and prevent a last second hail mary from beating us, so I have to wonder, what difference does tackling really make? The starting 11 for every team around the league have an average tackling skill of 85. The two teams with the highest average tackling skill are ATL and HAM at 87.91 and the team with the lowest is SF at 80.36. That means that there is over a full grade point difference in SF's team ability to tackle and ATL/HAM's team ability. All 3 of these teams are 1-3. This data probably means absolutely nothing, but whatever.
[b]Summary (read this part, the rest is probably crap)[/b]
At this point, defense is nothing but guess work and luck. I have an excellent DT (one of the best in the league) and a solid D-line, but we get gutted for big runs up the middle as much as anyone does (3 TD runs of 40+ yards in the final 4 games last season, cost us a playoff chance).
I am playing my OLB's as the two guys with the best pass coverage skill, because they are my 4-2-5 LB's and they are most likely to be required to cover a TE; yet my two INT's this season have been by a MLB.
I watch the boxscores and marvel at why so-and-so is breaking a tackle attempt from such-and-such when he was lined up in front of whoever at the snap. For example, on [url=http://footballbeta.simdynasty.com/boxscore.jsp?boxscoreid=4994&thid=495]this play[/url] where I am defending a Shotgun Long Pass with a 4-3 defense (which should have been a Zone/Prevent or a Sam/Will Blitz from my settings, the text does NOT say that I blitzed, but if I'm in a Zone/Prevent, why am I not in a 4-2-5 defense?). He has [url=http://footballbeta.simdynasty.com/player.jsp?id=133018]Larry Wheeler[/url] lined up as the slot receiver. I would expect my FS, [url=http://footballbeta.simdynasty.com/player.jsp?id=127930]Joe Beauchamp[/url] to line up to cover Wheeler; since [url=http://footballbeta.simdynasty.com/player.jsp?id=127781]Scott[/url] is paired with [url=http://footballbeta.simdynasty.com/player.jsp?id=126961]Glennie[/url] and [url=http://footballbeta.simdynasty.com/player.jsp?id=132964]Waddy[/url] is on the other side of the field matched with [url=http://footballbeta.simdynasty.com/player.jsp?id=131941]Visco Logan[/url]. But that isn't what happened. For some reason, when the pass is thrown 27 yards down field and caught on the 7 yard line the closest defender is Jim Waddy, who misses the tackle and allows the winning TD to score. Where was Beauchamp's 98 pass coverage ability on the play? Or my [url=http://footballbeta.simdynasty.com/player.jsp?id=127941]SS[/url] who has 92 tackling, 74 pursuit and 83 speed? Was he defending the run? With 1 second left and a 3-point lead? What happened!
I just have no idea what happens or why on the defensive side of the ball. I don't know how to optimize my team to take advantage of our strengths (tackling, and up-the-middle defense). And it is driving me crazy. Help?
casperthegm
Also, when it comes to seeing where you can see the players moving around the field during the play would be a nice addition to Dynasty Vision. There's actually another sim out there, sportsims, that does that, allowing you to see what is working and what isn't. It's only simple dots representing the players, similar to what we see on Dynasty Vision but you can actually see the play unfold and see how the players are behaving on the field. I thought that was a really nice feature, although I'm sure it's a lot easier said then done, if it's even possible to take that idea without running it issues about "stealing" an idea.
[Edited on 9-9-2011 by casperthegm]
[Edited on 9-9-2011 by casperthegm]
September 09, 2011 at 10:10PM View BBCode
Regarding the part in your summary where you mentioned your opponent lining up in the shotgun and you'd expect to be in a 4-2-5 defense, I've been wondering about the way we choose our settings. I've played one other football sim that was competent and in that game we were allowed to set our defenses according to various offensive formations and then choose how tight/aggressive they would line up. It just seems counterintuitive to simply go by down and distance here in this game. Yes, on second and short I can choose multiple defensive options in my settings but the system won't always choose a dime package when the opponent lines up in a shotgun. That's why I like the idea of basing my defense on the formation I'm facing.Also, when it comes to seeing where you can see the players moving around the field during the play would be a nice addition to Dynasty Vision. There's actually another sim out there, sportsims, that does that, allowing you to see what is working and what isn't. It's only simple dots representing the players, similar to what we see on Dynasty Vision but you can actually see the play unfold and see how the players are behaving on the field. I thought that was a really nice feature, although I'm sure it's a lot easier said then done, if it's even possible to take that idea without running it issues about "stealing" an idea.
[Edited on 9-9-2011 by casperthegm]
[Edited on 9-9-2011 by casperthegm]
redcped
I might be full of beans on this, and believe me I was as surprised as you at the result (I still don't know why we didn't attempt a 51-yard FG, which Douglas has hit before and virtually any team in clear conditions would probably attempt) ...
I agree about Tackling. My MLB Vassau has 100 tackling, but he has more missed tackles on pass plays than anyone. If that's just an indication of covering more guys, fine, but that's odd because the OLB should be doing more of that, right?
September 09, 2011 at 10:11PM View BBCode
The one factor you might not be including is fatigue. I'm not sure, but is it possible that by that final play, your defenders had lost a couple steps and Wheeler was fresher?I might be full of beans on this, and believe me I was as surprised as you at the result (I still don't know why we didn't attempt a 51-yard FG, which Douglas has hit before and virtually any team in clear conditions would probably attempt) ...
I agree about Tackling. My MLB Vassau has 100 tackling, but he has more missed tackles on pass plays than anyone. If that's just an indication of covering more guys, fine, but that's odd because the OLB should be doing more of that, right?
redcped
Can't you play Shallow Zone and/or Man to Man in a 4-2-5? Or is that only a Deep Zone formation?
September 09, 2011 at 10:15PM View BBCode
Agree with Casper. Should be some better logic on formations.Can't you play Shallow Zone and/or Man to Man in a 4-2-5? Or is that only a Deep Zone formation?
Admin
I would love to do this, but the amount of data I would have to store, transmit and display is oppresively large. In addition, in the current version of the engine, I don't even have that much detail.
The current engine is similar to the baseball engine in that it uses percentages to determine what happens in many cases. This means that actual player movement on the field is not tracked, simply likely outcomes. This leads to realistic games but the "granularity" isn't very fine. That is why matchups don't always look as you would expect and why I can't properly determine who makes a tackle.
Of course I have plans in place to change all this; many key features of the game's future requires more detail internally at least. I've been working more of it in where I can but at some point I am going to have to rip apart the main engine, and until it's rebuilt pretty much nothing else can be worked on.
Defense based on formation isn't as helpful with so few formations in the game so far. AS the game grows, an addition for defense that takes into account the offensive formation is a good idea.
I see a lot of comments like "I don't know why we didn't kick" and I need to think of a way to somehow communicate this information to players. It's usually going to come down to wind conditions, and that's easy to see when you DO kick because it's right on the field goal display and described in the play by play, but harder to see when you don't kick; you have to look at the conditions at the top, look at the situation on the field, and figure out where the wind is blowing. I don't know what the best solution here is though. Maybe some sort of "strategy note" in the play by play that is normally not shown, and the play could have an icon on it like an exlamation point only visible to that team and when hovered over it would display something like "The coach considered a field goal but the kick is into a crosswind to right and he estimates only a 58% chance of making it" or something like that. But it feels so clunky, and toward the end of a game you'd start having a LOT of these icons.
--Chris
September 10, 2011 at 01:02AM View BBCode
Originally posted by casperthegm
Also, when it comes to seeing where you can see the players moving around the field during the play would be a nice addition to Dynasty Vision. There's actually another sim out there, sportsims, that does that, allowing you to see what is working and what isn't. It's only simple dots representing the players, similar to what we see on Dynasty Vision but you can actually see the play unfold and see how the players are behaving on the field.
I would love to do this, but the amount of data I would have to store, transmit and display is oppresively large. In addition, in the current version of the engine, I don't even have that much detail.
The current engine is similar to the baseball engine in that it uses percentages to determine what happens in many cases. This means that actual player movement on the field is not tracked, simply likely outcomes. This leads to realistic games but the "granularity" isn't very fine. That is why matchups don't always look as you would expect and why I can't properly determine who makes a tackle.
Of course I have plans in place to change all this; many key features of the game's future requires more detail internally at least. I've been working more of it in where I can but at some point I am going to have to rip apart the main engine, and until it's rebuilt pretty much nothing else can be worked on.
Defense based on formation isn't as helpful with so few formations in the game so far. AS the game grows, an addition for defense that takes into account the offensive formation is a good idea.
I see a lot of comments like "I don't know why we didn't kick" and I need to think of a way to somehow communicate this information to players. It's usually going to come down to wind conditions, and that's easy to see when you DO kick because it's right on the field goal display and described in the play by play, but harder to see when you don't kick; you have to look at the conditions at the top, look at the situation on the field, and figure out where the wind is blowing. I don't know what the best solution here is though. Maybe some sort of "strategy note" in the play by play that is normally not shown, and the play could have an icon on it like an exlamation point only visible to that team and when hovered over it would display something like "The coach considered a field goal but the kick is into a crosswind to right and he estimates only a 58% chance of making it" or something like that. But it feels so clunky, and toward the end of a game you'd start having a LOT of these icons.
--Chris
Hamilton2
Ironically enough, the "freshest" of my DB's at that time was Waddy, the guy who missed the tackle. LOL
Yeah, I have to think that your chance of making the FG was higher than your chance of throwing that TD pass (especially since the ball didn't even go the whole distance to the end zone ...).
Yup, the ILB/OLB pass coverage thing is quite baffling to me.
September 10, 2011 at 01:27AM View BBCode
Originally posted by redcped
The one factor you might not be including is fatigue. I'm not sure, but is it possible that by that final play, your defenders had lost a couple steps and Wheeler was fresher?
Ironically enough, the "freshest" of my DB's at that time was Waddy, the guy who missed the tackle. LOL
I might be full of beans on this, and believe me I was as surprised as you at the result (I still don't know why we didn't attempt a 51-yard FG, which Douglas has hit before and virtually any team in clear conditions would probably attempt) ...
Yeah, I have to think that your chance of making the FG was higher than your chance of throwing that TD pass (especially since the ball didn't even go the whole distance to the end zone ...).
I agree about Tackling. My MLB Vassau has 100 tackling, but he has more missed tackles on pass plays than anyone. If that's just an indication of covering more guys, fine, but that's odd because the OLB should be doing more of that, right?
Yup, the ILB/OLB pass coverage thing is quite baffling to me.
Hamilton2
September 10, 2011 at 01:32AM View BBCode
Defense should be based on offensive personnel. If the offense sends out 3 WR, I would prefer to play a 4-2-5 (or a 4-3 zone). I would like to be able to specify my defense by offensive distribution of RB/TE/WR and then set a scale of "more run/more pass" and specify my pass coverage as zone/man.Pages: 1