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tworoosters
KC had about a 20 game lead at that point and Frailing is ineligible for the post season so the only reason I can think of is to get a "hometown discount" and be able to sign Frailing for 29% less than anyone else.
I will continue to rail about the leadeship/hometown discount ratio, especially when playing 4 games creates a "hometown" .
Nicely Gamed ?
September 30, 2010 at 04:37AM View BBCode
Kansas City acquires potential free agent, and A+ leadership, [url=http://beta.simdynasty.com/player.jsp?id=61082]Tom Frailing[/url] on September 26th .KC had about a 20 game lead at that point and Frailing is ineligible for the post season so the only reason I can think of is to get a "hometown discount" and be able to sign Frailing for 29% less than anyone else.
I will continue to rail about the leadeship/hometown discount ratio, especially when playing 4 games creates a "hometown" .
barterer2002
September 30, 2010 at 10:40AM View BBCode
The counterpoint is that Toronto was able to move an asset that had little value to them for some pieces. One of the hallmarks of the Salary leagues is player movement which I tend to think is a positive thing.
Stros
September 30, 2010 at 03:16PM View BBCode
I agree with Roosters. I'm not saying that is what happened or the intent here but it certainly will be used that way once it's rolled out. Seems like the hometown discount should take a bit more than what it is, especially after reading over all these salary pages the last few days.
Hamilton2
September 30, 2010 at 03:43PM View BBCode
I don't have a problem with this at all. There is certain value to having the benefit of bidding for a player with high leadership and trying to get him to return to your team. So, I could see that being a good selling point when trying to move veterans with declining salaries. You are basically trading your right of first refusal, or something.
Admin
Tyson
September 30, 2010 at 03:53PM View BBCode
Roosters - I don't have any immediate plans on changing strategy-type things yet. I'm only looking to work out bugs.Tyson
tworoosters
A) not so ludicrously high
B) were designed so that 4 games, or likely zero games since I'm guessing it would apply to players traded between the end of the season and the off season, did not constitute a "hometown" .
With a 29% "bonus" applied KC is almost certain to resign Frailing at a major discount in return for another free agent and a marginal prospect.
To me it represents a glaring loophole in the system, the kind of thing beta is supposed to expose, and is totally unrealistic .
September 30, 2010 at 03:56PM View BBCode
I would agree with the practice if the "leadership/hometown bonus" were:A) not so ludicrously high
B) were designed so that 4 games, or likely zero games since I'm guessing it would apply to players traded between the end of the season and the off season, did not constitute a "hometown" .
With a 29% "bonus" applied KC is almost certain to resign Frailing at a major discount in return for another free agent and a marginal prospect.
To me it represents a glaring loophole in the system, the kind of thing beta is supposed to expose, and is totally unrealistic .
Admin
Tyson
[Edited on 9-30-2010 by Admin]
September 30, 2010 at 04:19PM View BBCode
The main purpose of testing free agency stuff in beta is to find bugs. Feedback like this is appreciated, but not the primary focus. The AML has been running for a long time and has been using this. I'm not going to look to change things like this until we get a few more leagues up and running.Tyson
[Edited on 9-30-2010 by Admin]
tm4559
i don't know how much the hometown discount really is. and i am not saying you can quantify what the real life hometown discount is. but if you can quantify it, then the one for the simulation should not be bigger.
even if you can show that joe mauer or somebody took 29% less (and i am just kind of using that percentage as an example) it is not quite the same thing. this stuff with trading for something for 4 games, or half or season, or whatever, to get a hometown discount? that is just dumb. that isn't what the real life hometown discount is, even if it exists in real life.
September 30, 2010 at 05:14PM View BBCode
i realize this is just beta and all, but if the thing is going toward general release, it will have to be worked out.i don't know how much the hometown discount really is. and i am not saying you can quantify what the real life hometown discount is. but if you can quantify it, then the one for the simulation should not be bigger.
even if you can show that joe mauer or somebody took 29% less (and i am just kind of using that percentage as an example) it is not quite the same thing. this stuff with trading for something for 4 games, or half or season, or whatever, to get a hometown discount? that is just dumb. that isn't what the real life hometown discount is, even if it exists in real life.
tworoosters
The SIM discount is as follows:
Leadership Adjustment - you only get this if the player is returning to the same team. Here is the function for that:
if(leadership <= 51) { return 1.0; }
if(leadership <= 59) { return 1.08; }
if(leadership <= 67) { return 1.12; }
if(leadership <= 75) { return 1.16; }
if(leadership <= 83) { return 1.20; }
if(leadership <= 91) { return 1.25; }
if(leadership > 91) { return 1.29; }
So as an A+ leader Frailing will give KC an automatic 29% disdcount as his "hometeam" despite having only played 4 games in KC.
September 30, 2010 at 06:26PM View BBCode
Originally posted by tm4559
i realize this is just beta and all, but if the thing is going toward general release, it will have to be worked out.
i don't know how much the hometown discount really is. and i am not saying you can quantify what the real life hometown discount is. but if you can quantify it, then the one for the simulation should not be bigger.
even if you can show that joe mauer or somebody took 29% less (and i am just kind of using that percentage as an example) it is not quite the same thing. this stuff with trading for something for 4 games, or half or season, or whatever, to get a hometown discount? that is just dumb. that isn't what the real life hometown discount is, even if it exists in real life.
The SIM discount is as follows:
Leadership Adjustment - you only get this if the player is returning to the same team. Here is the function for that:
if(leadership <= 51) { return 1.0; }
if(leadership <= 59) { return 1.08; }
if(leadership <= 67) { return 1.12; }
if(leadership <= 75) { return 1.16; }
if(leadership <= 83) { return 1.20; }
if(leadership <= 91) { return 1.25; }
if(leadership > 91) { return 1.29; }
So as an A+ leader Frailing will give KC an automatic 29% disdcount as his "hometeam" despite having only played 4 games in KC.
tm4559
(does this mean you bid for it as usual, and then some number is taken off the salary? or are these not dollars, but some other sort of factor? forgive me for being dense.)
September 30, 2010 at 06:28PM View BBCode
thank you for explaining the particulars. dumb, still dumb.(does this mean you bid for it as usual, and then some number is taken off the salary? or are these not dollars, but some other sort of factor? forgive me for being dense.)
tworoosters
The bottom line is that all other factors being equal the "home team" can bid 28% less and resign their player, which I think is too high under any circumstance but is really silly when the guy has played 4 games out of four years for his "home team" .
I understand Tyson's position in some ways but the fact remains that if you roll this thing out there to the masses with this bug, and I call it a bug, in it the howls will be long and loud .
I think we should address the "home team" issue first and worry about the discount later .
September 30, 2010 at 06:40PM View BBCode
Basically it means that 29% is added to the home teams bid to create the "effective amount", the other factors involved are prestige and contract length, it's all outlined in [url=http://www.simdynasty.com/oldforum-viewthread.jsp?tid=276692]this thread[/url].The bottom line is that all other factors being equal the "home team" can bid 28% less and resign their player, which I think is too high under any circumstance but is really silly when the guy has played 4 games out of four years for his "home team" .
I understand Tyson's position in some ways but the fact remains that if you roll this thing out there to the masses with this bug, and I call it a bug, in it the howls will be long and loud .
I think we should address the "home team" issue first and worry about the discount later .
Admin
Tyson
September 30, 2010 at 07:03PM View BBCode
Bottom line is that there is one paying league using this system and they are happy with it as far as I know. So I'm not going to sink time into this sort of stuff yet. Once we get up to 2 or 3 leagues, it might make more sense to devote more time to it. My time is better spent on things that the other leagues may benefit from.Tyson
tm4559
September 30, 2010 at 07:06PM View formatted
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that is understandable.
tm4559
September 30, 2010 at 07:08PM View BBCode
(with all that being said, signing a thing for four games is gaming this, and the same folks who are in the paying league are the same folks who are always on board with doing away with the gaming aspects of the thing. so, really, they should ask for it to be tweaked.)
BigMacAttack
i would agree that getting a leadership bonus for a guy who played 4 games and is ineligible for the post season is probably not right though. but the way i see it is basically like trading for a guys rights to try to get first in line. It's happening all the time now in the NHL
September 30, 2010 at 07:56PM View BBCode
If he's gaming that's fine - I honestly haven't had enough time to pay mucn attention here so saw the offer and said to myself i get a 24 year old who with some luck may be able to get some guys out for a guy i'm going to lose anyway. why wouldn't i take that deal?i would agree that getting a leadership bonus for a guy who played 4 games and is ineligible for the post season is probably not right though. but the way i see it is basically like trading for a guys rights to try to get first in line. It's happening all the time now in the NHL
tworoosters
It's like the BoHo which has virtually no enforceable anti-tank rules but nobody tanks because they believe in the anti-tanking concept .
September 30, 2010 at 07:56PM View BBCode
Nobody games it in the AML because they are all fully committed to the process and gaming it defeats the process .It's like the BoHo which has virtually no enforceable anti-tank rules but nobody tanks because they believe in the anti-tanking concept .
BigMacAttack
[Edited on 9-30-2010 by BigMacAttack]
September 30, 2010 at 08:00PM View BBCode
I've dealt guys and gotten more for them in the AML becasue they have good leadership - not with 4 games left in the year though[Edited on 9-30-2010 by BigMacAttack]
tm4559
September 30, 2010 at 08:26PM View BBCode
listen burger. carefully. if a team can sign a player next season for 29% less than normal, because it traded for it with 4 games left in the season for nothing (a 24 year old player? seriously, if the thing cannot already play, why does anybody want that?) is just plain silly and stupid. i am not afraid to call it silly and stupid because it is, in fact, silly and stupid. you are of course personally and professionaly wonderful.
tm4559
September 30, 2010 at 09:24PM View BBCode
ha. he is one my favorites. if he could straighten out his obnoxious brother, he would be perfect.
hobos
That said, I agree the hometown discount is far too high. It's great to sign Spiers every year for well below his worth, but shouldn't happen in the real game.
September 30, 2010 at 10:02PM View BBCode
You also have to realize that this league has been playing a season every few days. I offered this trade a couple days ago, early in the season, and had completely forgotten about it until I saw this thread. In fact I hadn't even noticed the leadership, I just wanted a better OF.That said, I agree the hometown discount is far too high. It's great to sign Spiers every year for well below his worth, but shouldn't happen in the real game.
tworoosters
September 30, 2010 at 10:20PM View BBCode
Oh trust me Kevin, we don't hate the player, we hate the game.
tm4559
September 30, 2010 at 11:18PM View BBCode
oh, yeah, i mean, nobody is complaining about how folks do the beta leauge, that is what its all about. you are supposed to try to exploit anything you can find. thats the whole point.
Admin
To prove the math, take a 7.75m bid and multiply it by 1.29, which will give you just shy of 10m.
Now, that being said, is the question whether or not a 23% discount is too much? Or getting this discount 4 days after signing a player ridiculous? For the first question, I would agree to a degree that this is perhaps a bit high, but what percentage of high value guys are going to have A+ leadership. Next, I would argue that guys do routinely sign contracts for 8m as opposed to 10m or 4m as opposed to 5m for whatever reason. Be that to join a winning team, to stay where they are, or to go back home.
As for being able to get this discount after just acquiring a guy in trade before the end of the season, or even during the playoffs, seems a little ridiculous. But, things similar to this do happen in other real life in sports leagues. In the NBA there are frequent sign and trades for example where players who wouldn't be able to sign for a max contract with one team are signed to their home team and then traded. I've noted many instances in MLB, and this has often struck me as odd, where players have been traded at the trade deadline on the last year of their contract and end up re-signing with the team that traded for them. They were only there for a couple months, so it seems odd that they re-sign. But this seems to happen more often than not. In other leagues, most teams wont trade for a guy in a contract year unless he signs an extension first.
The point of the leadership bonus is to allow you to try and keep some of the players you've spent a lot of time and effort drafting and developing. Is the bonus maybe a bit too high? Maybe, but I think we need more time to determine that. I think given a choice, most owners will find it more enjoyable to have a system that favors them keeping their star players. Because we do not have a system that allows for re-signing before a guy hits the market, this helps compensate for some of that. Also, this benefit will only help you re-sign the portion of high leadership guys you have.
Is the system perfect? Like everything else in SimD it is not, and never can be and still keep the game enjoyable and not overly time consuming or complicated. I don't think the bonus is the problem as much as how it was acquired in this case. Perhaps some code can be added in to ignore the bonus unless a player has spent X time on a team. But thats something to be explored in the future.
-Jet
October 04, 2010 at 04:32AM View BBCode
Actually, the math being used here is not quite accurate. The percentage discount needs to be calculated as divided by 1.0. So if you have an A+ leadership bonus, you're gaining a factor of 1.29 to your bid. To find the percentage discount of that, you take 1 and divide it by 1.29, which shows as 77.5% or a 22.5% discount.To prove the math, take a 7.75m bid and multiply it by 1.29, which will give you just shy of 10m.
Now, that being said, is the question whether or not a 23% discount is too much? Or getting this discount 4 days after signing a player ridiculous? For the first question, I would agree to a degree that this is perhaps a bit high, but what percentage of high value guys are going to have A+ leadership. Next, I would argue that guys do routinely sign contracts for 8m as opposed to 10m or 4m as opposed to 5m for whatever reason. Be that to join a winning team, to stay where they are, or to go back home.
As for being able to get this discount after just acquiring a guy in trade before the end of the season, or even during the playoffs, seems a little ridiculous. But, things similar to this do happen in other real life in sports leagues. In the NBA there are frequent sign and trades for example where players who wouldn't be able to sign for a max contract with one team are signed to their home team and then traded. I've noted many instances in MLB, and this has often struck me as odd, where players have been traded at the trade deadline on the last year of their contract and end up re-signing with the team that traded for them. They were only there for a couple months, so it seems odd that they re-sign. But this seems to happen more often than not. In other leagues, most teams wont trade for a guy in a contract year unless he signs an extension first.
The point of the leadership bonus is to allow you to try and keep some of the players you've spent a lot of time and effort drafting and developing. Is the bonus maybe a bit too high? Maybe, but I think we need more time to determine that. I think given a choice, most owners will find it more enjoyable to have a system that favors them keeping their star players. Because we do not have a system that allows for re-signing before a guy hits the market, this helps compensate for some of that. Also, this benefit will only help you re-sign the portion of high leadership guys you have.
Is the system perfect? Like everything else in SimD it is not, and never can be and still keep the game enjoyable and not overly time consuming or complicated. I don't think the bonus is the problem as much as how it was acquired in this case. Perhaps some code can be added in to ignore the bonus unless a player has spent X time on a team. But thats something to be explored in the future.
-Jet
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